JZA80MHU38

BMW owns arguably the most premium brand in the world.

silversprucesc3

+ BACK ON TOPIC......

Is it possible that BMW not Clublexus BUT BMW view Infiniti more as a threat???





Thinking of the cars and advertising that Infiniti is pushing.... Its clear that they seem to thrive on pushing their vehicles as driving machines

LexFather

Lol, u probably said the same thing in 1989 Your comments are laughable at best, saying Lexus cannot make a "decent" handling car.

This is only the first time BMW has actually mentioned Infiniti anywhere/anytime and more than anything, I think it was a shot at LEXUS, it wasn't even about Infiniti.

I posted an article in BUSINESS WEEK a month or so ago about how BMW respects Lexus and what they bring to the industry.

doug_999

You know, you would think we could keep this on topic. Alas, the second post (by Lexus fanboy #1 who does not even own a Lexus) takes it off topic (and he uses really cool math to determine profit margine too!).

HOWEVER, back on topic......

As someone who was in the market for a V8 powered luxury car and purchased a BMW, I can tell you, my second choice was Infiniti and YES BMW should keep a close eye on them - they make a great product at a great price.

TopSCecreT

i'll take a BMW over an Infiniti

but i'm biased

picus

Geez, only you guys who view this as a shot at Lexus rather than praise to Infiniti.

TRDFantasy

It's not so much a "shot" at Lexus but more of an ignorant attitude towards Lexus. Again, the tone of the article and what the BMW representative says implies that BMW is not concerned about Lexus, but concerned about Infiniti, which is not only ignorant, but simply baffling to anyone who's in touch with the auto industry and worldwide market trends. Yes, the BMW employee mentions Lexus, and does acknowledge Lexus as being competitive, but it seems that the attitude of brushing Lexus aside remains at BMW.

As for everyone who is comparing worldwide BMW, Audi, or Mercedes sales to worldwide Lexus sales, that is not a valid comparison. The German brands sell lots of downmarket models in high volumes all around the world. Lexus today is trying to move upmarket with all of it's models, meanwhile BMW and Mercedes are trying to bring their 1 Series and B Class models to the US. The 1 Series, B Class, A Class, and A3 (just to name a few) are all downmarket models, and they have interiors not even worthy of being called luxury. They are downmarket models, selling for less money and being less luxurious than the lowest Lexus model, which happens to be the IS220d. Mercedes sells tons of taxis in Germany, that are as common as Camrys or Corollas here in North America. As for Lexus, I don't think I've heard of any Lexus taxis yet, and if they do exist, it is in very small numbers. Some of Toyota's upper models like the Blade compact compete with the low end German brand models.

doug_999

As discussed many times on this board, BMW and Lexus cater to two very different sets of people (I know you understand this). Infiniti is moving their target towards the same set of people that BMW caters to - thus they are a concern. When Lexus goes after BMWs target audience with a credible effort, then and only then will they become a concern. Its not all about sales leadership.

TRDFantasy

I understand that, but it would be foolish for BMW to brush off Lexus, especially now with the debut of the F sub-brand. With the F cars, Lexus is aiming at BMW more than ever.

picus

Regardless of how you feel about it, that particular BMW employee obviously feels differently. No offense to you at all, but I am sure BMW is well aware of the different forces in the industry to an extent us enthusiasts can only hope to emulate.

Hypnotik

Thanks for sharing that!

RON430

How do you tell when an automotive general manager is lying? Competitive performance sport sedan? We ain't building no stinkin' competitive performance sport sedans. We are building sedans with "raw driving thrill at all speeds and provide a whole new definition of 'usable power'".

But ignoring the above for a moment, I can certainly understand BMW feeling Infiniti is a "danger" to their market. With the possible exception of the IS, BMW can be pretty clear on what Lexus means in a car. Before the insecure among us have to rally to defend Lexus, you can raise a very valid argument that Audi and Mercedes Benz do not compete with BMW either. Maybe there are some specific tuner models that go head to head in the market place for the same customer but across the board, no one seems to have tried to redefine the sport sedan that BMW has in fact defined. Infiniti may be closer to having the intention of coming closer across the entire range to competing with BMW than anyone else and that should concern them if Infiniti can match the driving experience to the owning experience.

Could Lexus compete with BMW? Of course. But believe me, I do not base that on the models that Lexus has produced as much as I base it on my experiences with both the Supra and the MR2. But somebody within Toyota/Lexus is going to have to decide to do it and not be building a retreat from the getgo such as saying that the IS-F is going to have "over 400hp" or do "0-60 in better than 4.9". Please save the platitudes of Toyota/Lexus conservatism, compete or don't, I really don't care but have the commitment to stand and say what you are promising to deliver. If Lexus decides to go compete with bimmer, do it. Until then, I can understand why BMW views Infiniti as more dangerous. But whether Infiniti will be able to really compete with BMW is a big question. And the answer right now is, not yet.

diablo1

I don't see what all the fuss is about, guys. I don't think this is an ignorant or arrogant statement by BMW at all. Look at what the guy said. "With the power of Toyota behind it, you can never underestimate Lexus."

As a huge Lexus fan, I think this BMW guy is 100% correct that as of right this second, Infiniti is a bigger threat to BMW's sales than Lexus is. It's not hard to see why. Lexus's best-selling car in the US is the ES350, for which BMW doesn't even have a competing model. Lexus's sportiest models don't come with manuals. The guy isn't saying that Lexus is a poorly run company or makes an inferior product or anything like that. He's just saying that model-for-model, Infiniti is more competitive with BMW, by design, than Lexus is.

Lexus makes a point of this. They have said that the IS is not a "Lexus version" of the 3 series. All of the magazines hype up the competition of these models, and many people end up looking at both models, but for most people, the choice is pretty clear. Lexus has class-leading reliability, advanced electronics and ergonomics, and a strong emphasis on luxury throughout their product range. BMW has class-leading handling/steering/dynamics, decent but not stellar reliability, and a clear emphasis on the driving experience, with many nice luxury features thrown in as well. Which of those sounds more like Infiniti to you? If Lexus said, BMW is less of a threat to us than, say, MB, do you think the BMW fans would get all up in arms about it? I don't.

Having said all this, the IS-F is a clear move into BMW's territory, bringing Lexus into more clear competition with BMW. The extent to which the IS-F competes well with the M3 in handling, dynamics, driving feel etc. will give us a better idea of how well Lexus can take on BMW on their own ground. But so far, I don't think that has necessarily been Lexus's intention.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

With the F line I think Mercedes will be more concerned about Lexus than BMW M. The F line appears to be more in line with AMG than M, thus presumably targeting and attracting the same market as AMG buyers.

Personally, I don't think Lexus is aiming at BMW at all. The cars they build show this. I've owned both BMW and Lexus, so obviously I cross shopped, but the determining factor for me was which direction I wanted my car to go. When I wanted sporty fun car I bought the BMW. When I wanted family hauling capacity I bought the RX. When I wanted smooth semi sporty daily driver I bought the SC. When I thought about buying an E90 330i, I also thought about buying an Infiniti M35. So, I do think Infiniti is more inline with BMW in terms of the cars characteristics and feel than Lexus.

Shawnmack

Infiniti are the only cars to beat BMW in car mag. test plus the new G35 drives like a guided missile and looks good with as much room as my GS.