rai

Crash tests and a little article about how small cars are not as safe as larger cars (even if they have similar crash test scores). Another point is that many people want a small (Cheap) car they don't want to spend $$ on side air-bags.

------>>>>>>http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/19/au...0A&oref=slogin

I went through the process a few months back, I wanted a small car with great fuel economy as a 4th car so I didn't want to spend a ton of money. So I looked at a small car like the Fit. At the time they didn't have crash test data but I figured just for it's weight it was not going to be as good as a high rated mid-size car.

There is no escaping the fact that (for the most part) small cars are cheaper and get great mileage, but I'd rather spend more and then pay more at the pump and end up with (what I got a Legacy) or other mid-size cars like the Accord/Camry etc...

doug_999

I think the issue here is that often manufacturers make side airbags "optional". Well in a low priced car, the dealer is not going to stock up on cars with those "optional" side airbags because now his "low priced car" is $500 more than the dealer down the street.

The only way around this is to make the side airbags standard - as they should be.

mmarshall

Well, there is another side of the issue too....a side that you rarely hear about from the safety and insurance lobbies. Small cars, despite their obvious tendency to come out second-best in collisions with larger vehicles, can often AVOID accidents in the first place simply by their generally greater manuverability, more responsive steering, and ability to change directions quicker.

For instance............suppose you are driving along in your tiny Miata or S2000 ( cars with generally poor crash protection ) and a deer pops out of the bushes, right in front of you, as they often do during mating season. You instinctively swerve, and go around the startled deer with no problem...the car has no problem avoiding it.
Now.............try that with a Lincoln Town Car ( a car with not-so-poor crash protection ), and what happens? Three things. The car plows straight ahead, it ( and perhaps you, even with airbags ) gets banged up, and you've got some fresh venison for tonight's dinner.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Excellent point mmarshall. The safest car is the one you don't get into an accident in the first place in.

bizzy928

Those I agree with mmarshall, sometimes accidents are unavoidable. Especially when you share the road with OTHERS who may not be great drivers, or even worse, who are intoxicated.

Presently, side airbags, active head restraints, and a type of electronic stability control are all MUST HAVE's in terms of vehicular safety.

PhilipMSPT

iTrader: (5)

I just saw it in the news.

Front end collisions are good with small cars. However, side impact is the major concern.

Cars with no side/curtain airbags get "acceptable" with side impact collisions.
With the side/curtain airbags, it goes up to "good" or "very good" status.

And like said above, side/curtain airbags are optional for most small cars...

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Unless you can't afford them.

Of course safety ***** can make them required by law, but that's just another reason why the cost and WEIGHT of cars keeps going up.

Somehow we managed to drive cars with just one or even (gasp) NO airbags.

bizzy928

Fortunately, not being able to afford safety is becoming a thing of the past. With manufacturers like Hyundai, offering a full line of safety features (side bags, stability control...) on ALL models, consumers are able to opt for more well equipped vehicles. Honda has caught on and has implemented a "safety for everyone" campaign, where they will equip all of their vehicles, regardless of class/trim, with side airbags.

This is something I wish Toyota will do.

In terms of the weight of cars going up because of the added safety features, that is debatable. For example... Compare a 1978, Olds Delta 88 ("Family Sedan") with a 2007 Honda Accord. I am willing to bet the Accord is still lighter, packed with more features due to efficiencies in other areas such as the type/amount of steel and engine material/design.

Wow, I do sound like a safety ****! I guess I am in a way, most people don't understand the benefits of side bags and stability control and I like to spread the word. But, if "YOU" decide not to opt for the option when available, who am I to stop you? Its like wearing a seatbelt... I have no idea why you wouldn't wear one, but many don't!

mmarshall

Of course these safey features help, and of course some accidents are difficult or impossible to avoid. No one, including me, is saying otherwise. But that does not change the fact I brought up earlier...smaller, lighter cars, through their greater manuverability, are generally more able to avoid those accidents that ARE preventable. And why MAKE traction control standard if it has an on-off switch like many cars do? That, IMO, just defeats the very purpose of it. Outside of track use, the only reason I can think of to turn it off is to do powerslides, and if you have to hang the car's tail out and drift to get around a curve, you are going too fast to start with, and doing something potentially dangerous.

rai

The point is (IMO) to have stability control, but to design it in a way that it's there but I don't know it's there.

What I mean is I have a Sienna with VSC. It also happens to be AWD so maybe that helps, but the point is maybe 1 or 2 times in 60K miles have I detected it working. I believe there is a little light that shows up when it's kicks in, and you can tell with it braking or cut power.

On the other hand, I rented a Chrysler 300 with the 3.5L engine, it was RWD. And I only drove that like 300 miles and the stability control was cutting in all the time and was annoying. Like when I went to make a sharp low speed U-Turn, the ABS kicked in and the engine cut even tho I was on the gas. It was un-necessary. Maybe the back would have stepped out a few inches if it was left alone, but it was not like I would have been going round and round if not for the stability control.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

That must be why Hyundais are barely any less expensive and in sometimes more expensive than their Japanese counterparts.

You get nothing for nothing. Hondas are super reliable and now getting safer but have never been the lowest priced. It's easy to be excited about 'safety for everyone' if you can afford it. I guess there will be plenty of used cars with less safety for low income folks.

An absurd but amusing comparison. First off, the Delta 88 is HUGE compared to the Accord. Second, it has a big iron block V8. And no matter how many air bags, belts, beams, etc., momentum wins. In a collision of those two the Accord is likely to fly off in another direction.

You're right, a lot of people don't know. And it's true that newer safer cars have significantly cut death tolls on the roads, so I'm not saying safety is a bad thing. I'm just saying it does increase costs and weight which has to be taken out somewhere else if possible.

I also think a lot of these safety 'tests' are a lot of hype and many don't represent real world conditions. The scary headlines are more about fund raising and justifying increased insurance rates than actual safety. You do know, for example, that insurance companies aren't really interested in safety? If cars were completely safe for example, how could they justify increases in insurance premiums?

But you don't want it to be an option do you, you want it all mandatory? Every safety device for every vehicle? And yes, I always wear a seat belt.

So should a car stop you from drifting it or shouldn't it? It can't do both without a switch.

That's because yes, it's AWD plus you probably drive that conservatively, plus it's not very fast.

But your saying it shouldn't intervene if the back would have stepped out a few inches is an opinion. That might cause someone else to massively overcorrect and have an accident.

And comparing a 300 with a Sienna is about the same as the Delta 88 and Accord comparo. LOL

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

Have any of you been in a car where the airbags deployed? It might change your mind about them. I'd never drive without a seat belt when one was available, but I have seen first-hand what airbags do, and I've heard paramedics talk about accidents with children and side airbags. I don't believe they are the panacea people believe them to be. I've also seen a study by a statistician at the University of Georgia indicating you are more likely to be injured or killed in a car equipped with airbags when you consider ALL accidents, not just fatal accidents. The government chooses to use only fatal accidents to determine if an airbag did or did not save a life. It's a skewed view of the world IMHO.

My ultimate skeptcism is when I examine my insurance policy and the absolute pittance (<3% of the bodily injury premium) I get credited for having airbags. I will NEVER recoup the cost of this safety device when it saves me $12 a year.

I would not be surprised to find that the insurance companies find airbags are like ABS. Something that sounds great but doesn't really deliver when it comes to real world insurance claims. And I believe insurance claims are the BEST data source for real world experience, not crash test data. The tests can't possibly simulate real world conditions for a lot of very practical reasons, and just like the sticker in your helmet says, this device can not possibly protect you from all types of injury. Win, lose, or draw, you're going to get punched very hard when the bag deploys.

Finally, I have a grave concern that people drive differently in vehicles they believe are safer which also skews the statistics. I really do believe people driving Miatas and S2000s are fundamentally more concerned for their personal safety and drive more attentively than someone driving a Suburban. When I didn't own a car and only used a motorcycle for transportation (8 years), I noticed Volvo drivers seem to be the most inattentive drivers. They were the ones I watched most carefully because they would do the most dangerous thing for the driving situation very consistently. Knowing you are in the "safest" car on the road affords you a sense of invincibility that is dangerous to everyone else.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Post of the day! Excellent