That's the issue though, the fact you are comparing an E class to an LS at all and admit that the AMG is able to do an entire aspect of driving experience just flat out better is the whole problem with Lexus.

The LS would have to win against an maxed out W140 V12 Sclass to win/prove itself the best, it just can't do it. It's special and they clearly made a massive effort and ended up with a great car but in order to play at that tier you need a true halo car. The absolute highest they ever went was the LS600hL and while amazing it's just not on the same level as the true high end big three

They totally COULD do better but maybe they can't because they never once have for some reason, maybe so we can't accuse them of failing with full effort?

 

Out and about this morning, saw a really cool old Dodge Power Wagon. Very rare sighting.

 

i've driven a W220 S430 and i'd put the LS as being better than that, haven't driven a W140 but something tells me the LS would compare very favorably to that as well including the V12 model which weighs like half a ton more... the LS would certainly feel more modern

 

I would agree with that, but that was a low point for Mercedes, and really the only generation where I felt the LS was the better car. W140 the LS400 felt much more modern but not as special or as substantial.

 

Sure a S430 may be worse, but the S55 and S600 and S65 all exist and it's a totally different league. I've driven all 3 variants including a Renntech tuned S600 making 600 wheel and there is NO LS that is remotely comparable to that.

Hence my issue with Lexus

Once you taste the next level you don't go back unless for some reason you can't afford it or some other factor like wife rejection stops you.



On the topic of weight, my new S4 is lighter than my A8s and objectively handles and reacts worse. Weight is not a 1:1 determinant of if something drives well, the heavier German stuff has insanely advanced suspensions to eliminate any drawbacks that Lexus just doesn't do. Air suspension is STILL somehow an option on the LS.

As far as 12s make cars heavy....my D4 W12 is 91lb heavier than the light spec 4.2 V8 in my S4 and sits further back and lower. The M120 was an exception due to several reasons but V12s don't really change anything expect make the driving experience incomparable and excellent.

 

Teaching my dad how to drive stick is.....interesting

 

My Dad tried to teach me to drive a stick when I was 15, but something about the father son dynamic didn’t work and I said I’m good with automatics. This is one of many times it’s awesome to have a big brother. He said hell no and would not accept his little bro not knowing how to drive a stick. He taught me in his 1978 Fiat 131 (Super Brava). That had a heavier clutch than anything I have driven since. I have gotten so much joy out of driving manual transmission cars. My AE86 is a manual. All of the GT-S cars with the AE88 VIN are 5 speed manuals. I drove my brother’s 1985 MR2 a bit and it was a blast! The 1994 NSX in the family (which is really my brother’s car now) has put so many grins on my face. It is not the fastest car but it sure is a boot in the *** to drive.

In 1993, I had a very awkward trip to Germany where my German girlfriend at the time dumped me and said I couldn’t stay with her just two days before I was flying there. I called my German buddy and explained this all to him. He said I could stay at his place with the condition that I am the designated driver the night they were celebrating his birthday and completion of his doctorate degree. The Germans tied it on pretty good and we went to the car. My buddy tossed me the keys and one of his friends said, “he can’t drive. It’s a stick and he’s American.” lol.

While there is really no joy to be had from driving a 1979 Golf diesel, I did fine. Americans are not genetically prevented from knowing how to drive manual transmission cars. lol.

 

so this thread goes from 'cylinder envy' to 'brand envy'.

what's laughable is if you guys had a bentley or a rolls royce or something, you'd think the mercedes and audis were lame too and say that.

about lexus specifically, i have NEVER considered them on the same level/tier/whatever as mercedes/audi/bmw. the LS was a great initial home run, but lexus has always tried to stay in its own lane, doing 'different things' than supposed competitors. they've tried how many times to have 'performance' trims or add-ons.., remember "l-tuned"? then "f" models (they have 1 now, the rcf, right?), f-sport is mostly just trim. the 'f-sport performance' i guess is trying to be something like an amg package (not full blown amg although it's all become pretty blurred). they never did turbo v8. they don't do mild hybrid. they don't have a maybach, etc.

yes an s580 is way nicer and more sophisticated than an ls500, but it also costs 50% more so it should be.

anyway, i just take car models and brands for what they are. all different. pros and cons.

 

Bentley is my upgrade path for a reason, it's next level for the interior appointments and materials! Right now I'm happy enjoying my Bentley driveline and chassis, I also have bookmatched wood and leather sections in the W12 so it's a nice "preview" of sorts.

It's all pros and cons like you said, I try and pick what "fits" me best for driving and makes me feel something/the most possible positive emotions from speed or luxury etc.

I got more out of my Audis I those areas in a week than a year of the LS430, however the LSs are still special enough to me I bothered collecting them.

I didn't know about L tuned though, that's interesting that they were considering a TRD like devision!

 

Has nothing to do with "brand envy" is has everything to do with how the vehicles are engineered.

I don't see where anybody has denied that. Rolls especially is an incredibly special car, Bentleys less so because they share a lot of engineering with Audis, but without a doubt those cars are on another level from most Mercedes etc.

We would just like to see Lexus make more special cars. We know they can.

Point is there was a time when that wasn't the case. Like I said, when we got the LS430 in 2004 we legitimately felt like it was a better car than the S430/S500 at the time and at the least was as good for less money. When the LS460 came out I felt the same way compared to the W221 S Class. Lexus just completely lost their way there.

Optioned similarly an S500 (which is what is comparable to the LS500) is about $30,000 more, not 50% more. Leasewise they are about $300 more a month. In the grand scheme of things its not a huge amount more.

 

that's my issue with lexus too, they never do anything that would constitute 'excess fun' or 'over the top', i WISH there was a 500hp supercharged GS but i still don't think there's anything else that does exactly what the E55 does as well as it does... and i'm definitely snobby so i don't mind saying i have a benz either lol

i envy your traction with the audis, but i also pity you for not being able to pull off the most amazing tire smoking peel outs at will with the rear sliding all over the road

 

This is important! Lol

​​​​​Burnouts on demand should be possible. 🤓

 

Yes, they sure can. Did you forget about your 4GS? One of my favorites. I certainly agree with your view about MB/German. They are just different. And dollarwise... not just leases, but Toyota/Lexus MSRPs are crazy too.

 

I will eventually go back to a luxury brand and it will likely be a Benz. Probably an E is enough for me. My friend’s parents have a 2011 E 350 and the car has been excellent. My friend is a former Benz master tech and he’s barely had to touch the car.

 

4GS was definitely a great car!