Oh yeah, that one's a beauty.

And you're right about having no room.

 

The Avalon wasn't in the Lexus showroom and people who wanted the Lexus badge would never consider an Avalon. The issue is not so much cross-shopping as it is the fact that the ES effectively dilutes the appeal of the LS500 because it shares the same badge, looks very similar, and offers more or less the same if not slightly more interior space. All of these factors are enough to detract someone from even attempting to test drive an LS. Same with GS.

Genesis was designed for the South Korean market first and foremost and only exists because the Mercedes E-Class has been the best-selling foreign vehicle in the entire country for most of its history. That's why Genesis designed and released sedans first before they released crossovers, the American market is of secondary importance to them. This is in stark contrast to Lexus which was designed specifically to cater to American tastes from its inception, which is why the brand didn't even exist in Japan until the 2000's.

Mercedes and BMW have always had tremendous brand prestige and people will always buy a vehicle in the classes they offer for the badge and brand experience. The main reason they don't sell big FWD crossovers and sedans like Lexus is because they don't really have the platforms for it, and spending the time and money to make them from scratch would be cost prohibitive compared to just upgrading their existing platforms. What FWD platforms they do have are for small vehicles, and even then they have trouble finding suitable components to work with them (see all the issues BMW has had with the X1/X2 because they couldn't fit in the 8-speed ZF transversely and had to resort to an Aisin transmission from Toyota). But you can bet that if they had those platforms already existing and sold a big FWD GLE or GLS, people would still buy them in droves.

RWD didn't make Jaguar or Alfa Romeo successful, and FWD still made Volvo very successful despite charging German prices.

 

Yeah thats why I have never wanted a bunch of cars, where am I going to put them all?!

 

I just don't agree that people are going to wander into a Lexus dealership and buy a $100k LS500. The people who are considering an LS500 walk into the dealer looking for the LS500. Perhaps they can be persuaded to splurge way more and get an LS, but anybody who says "I was going to buy that $100k LS500 but then I saw that $50k ES350 and that was the same size so I just bought that" was not actually going to buy a $100k LS500.

I don't agree with that, BMW and Mercedes still have enough of a drive to build excellent products that they aren't looking to develop expensive FWD vehicles whether they would sell or not.

You have to have compelling products, and Volvo does not charge German prices. Volvo's average transaction price is lower than Lexus ($55k vs $58k for Lexus, BMW is $72k and MB is 78k)

 

lol. I completely agree.

‘I know someone who had a diesel E class 2005. 500,000km and someone crashed into him.

 

I would imagine your LX is similar to how the 5.7 is paired with the 6 speed in the Tundra. With empty trailer hitched to our LX, it left more to be desired. Loaded up I would probably add easily another 4k inside.





Look at the RPM in 5th, 6th, 7th gear.


Here’s my truck with trailer attached loaded inside with car, generator, extra wheels, tools, etc

 

There might be more people than you think who did switch from an LS to an ES.


Even then, my point isn't that the LS buyers are all switching to the ES, it's that the ES is diluting the appeal of the LS and pushing away people who may be interested otherwise if the ES wasn't in the same showroom to highlight the deficiencies of the LS.

They aren't because it would cost ridiculous sums of money to develop over upgrading their existing RWD platforms like they've been doing for decades. Look how much developing new from the ground up EV platforms has cost the German trio as they've considerably cheapened out on the interior quality of their vehicles to make up for the development budget. Look at how long Audi stuck with their longitudinal FWD-based platform despite knowing that a true RWD platform was more "premium."

The Alfa Giulia beat the current 3 Series in just about every comparison test when it originally came out, and Jaguar had a full lineup of vehicles until they decided it to "reboot" the brand again by axing all their cars. But these brands are only appreciated by enthusiasts and don't have the prestige or public awareness of BMW or Mercedes. It's hard to see how Volvo is more compelling than any of these brands when their entire lineup consists of transversely-mounted FWD platform vehicles with 4-cylinder engines exclusively, but they still sell much better regardless.

As for ATP, that's skewed depending on what car is bought the most per brand, not what's on offer. Cadillac's ATP is even higher than BMW despite most of their vehicles costing significantly less, because their brand is skewed by Escalade sales. Spec up any Volvo and they're just as expensive as the German equivalents.

 

I think they would if the present LS500 drove like previous LS versions. Unfortunately, it doesn't...for reasons which have already been discussed in detail in Car Chat, and don't have to be re-hashed here again.

 

Yeah with 15 inch 65 series tires. You are so right

 

uh oh

 

Knew it was just a matter of time. Lol
Why they need a patent to serve up ads is ridiculous.

Thanks Ford... Lol

 

Look on the bright side. Since Ford DID patent it, hopefully that means other manufacturers can't follow suit unless they license it from Ford.

 

ads suck. presumably there will be an opt out (most likely for a fee).

 

Those people were wasting money on the LS all along. If you're somebody who truly appreciates the benefits of the LS (like me) you would not be able to go to the ES. Trust me, I did. Every time I drove my ESs I missed the LS, but they were what I could afford at the time.

Thats another thing people aren't admitting, that they were at a point where they really can no longer afford a new LS and the cost savings of the ES is important, but they mask that behind the idea that "it really is very close for much less". Its in fact nowhere near the same. "Internet Dude" who's video you posted above left out that "things are way more expensive now and my income hasn't kept pace, so if I wanted a new Lexus with all a warranty and the touchscreen etc, I had to get a much cheaper one so I got an ES and I will just keep telling myself its just as good and the LS isn't worth it, even though thats simply a face saving lie"

I'll admit it, the only reason I got an ES in 2003 is because I wanted a new car, not a used car, the LS wasn't "my" car it was my Dad's car and the ES was what I could afford. Same in 2010, I was starting my business and thats why I kept the 03 ES, I couldn't afford a new one as early as I would prefer, and again in 2010 the ES was what I could afford. If I could have afforded a GS or an LS, I would have gotten one.

You're not a consumer for these vehicles. I can tell you that there is nothing about the ES that dilutes the appeal of the LS for someone who can afford the LS and to whom a car matters on some level. These people are buying the ES because they can't comfortably afford the LS or they just don't care enpugh about a car to pay what an LS costs in the first place.

As someone to whom a car matters and who can comfortably afford an LS obviously, the size of the vehicle is not a factor at all. I would never choose the ES because "its a little bit bigger inside" because its inferior in every other meaningful way.

Why aren't their new EVs then FWD? Because they know RWD is better. Audi always did everything they could to hide their FWD based platforms...because RWD is better.

BTW, MB and BMW have created all new RWD platforms. If they wanted to create higher end FWD platforms they could have done that...there just isn't any point since they know better than anybody what their consumer wants,

Consumers at that level will not just buy whatever is put in front of them with a badge on it.

Alfa as a brand is not recognized by most Americans, there are very few dealers...of course an established brand is going to sell better. Volvo has never sold themselves as a luxury car, its a brand that has long been focused on safety and their consumers are different than BMW and MB consumers.

A Volvo spec'ed up is not as expensive as a German equivalent lol, and most MBs and BMWs sold are 3/X3/X5 and C/GLC/GLE/E classes, right in the middle of their lineup.

If we're talking SUVs a GLS starts at $89,200. X7 starts at $83,500.....an XC90 starts at $58,695...dramatically cheaper. A fully loaded XC90 Ultra costs about where a base GLS starts, and is only ~ $5,000 more than a base X7. GLS and X7 are much more expensive than XC90.

 

Ford is known for patenting all kinds of wild and sometimes awful ideas and never using them. Maybe there's some hero inside FMC using their resources to keep bad ideas away from the other manufacturers to protect us lol.