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Old 10-16-17, 08:27 AM   #376
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ATF Stage III auto tranny and be done. No worries.

Shane
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Old 10-16-17, 09:40 AM   #377
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^^^ With the cost of that ATF Stage III plus a converter now a days , he will be over $5k . At that point , I will take the Tremec Magnum just because it will support more hp/torque and car's value will probably be higher since the 6speed is more desirable by many. Plus the fact that it looks like Jim prefers a manual transmission .
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Old 10-16-17, 03:20 PM   #378
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^^^ With the cost of that ATF Stage III plus a converter now a days , he will be over $5k . At that point , I will take the Tremec Magnum just because it will support more hp/torque and car's value will probably be higher since the 6speed is more desirable by many. Plus the fact that it looks like Jim prefers a manual transmission .
manual trans is preferred. The car will not be daily driven and will rarely get driven like I stole it. But when I need the power I want it to reliably be there. So if Iím on the highway cruising back from a photo shoot with Dmitry and the Chicago guys and a z06 happens to want to play on the highway, I donít want to have to worry if my trans is gonna like my decision. Know what I mean?

my goal changed when the parts I have came in at a great price. But I want to do it right, once. So there it is. This will probably see 3,000 miles a year tops. It will be driven daily in the summer but I only live 2.2 miles from work. A manual tranny is preferred but not a must.

Shane, I wouldnít mind a built auto. It takes away from the fun of driving the car though. Iíll send you a message soon.
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Old 10-16-17, 05:13 PM   #379
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Thanks guys. I guess I should specify that the reason for keeping the car at 400-450 was only because of my current transmission situation. 450 is by no means my end goal for this build. More of a starting point. And I don’t want to have to buy things twice. So an R154 is a great choice for my power levels but the guy I bought the majority of my components from Gernaded an r154 which ultimately caused him to part the car out. Mind you, this was after several trips to the drag strip on slicks. That being said, I’m tired of throwing good money away and then having to redo something.

So here: my initial goal WAS to keep the car at or around 400hp because I knew my trans will not hold any more power than that. But I know I’m not going to be happy knowing that the engine I’m building will be able to produce over 600. So the smart thing for me to do would be to buy a trans that can handle whatever can be thrown at it.

Craig, you’re right. A V160 truly isn’t a cost effective option. I’d LOVE to do it, but by the time I get all the necessary components to make it right, I’ll be well over $10k. Well over!

Gerry, you’re right too. I need to plan this build accordingly. And unfortunately I had a plan in place but then all of these go fast, high horsepower parts fell into my lap AFTER I bought the w58. So I need to re-evaluate a little bit as things have changed slightly.

So let’s say the new power goal is 600rwhp. Is the R154 capable of holding that power? If it is, then that will be my best route. If it isn’t, I’ll be contacting Grannas about the T56. Inreally think those are my two best options at this point. I guess a built a340e could be thrown into the mix but I’d rather keep it manual.

Thank you all for chiming in. I truly appreciate your feedback.
Given this information I have to wonder if that fellow had ever had his R154 rebuilt with an MC chromoly 1st gear thrust washer, or at what power level he was at when he frequently drag raced with his R154 on slicks. Given enough power, a set of slicks and repeated abusive launches and shifts that is a good way to eventually break an R154. It is a very stout transmission especially when built up and it is NOT glass at all like the W58 (and especially the W55) is with boost but it can be broken under severe use with all those factors combined. If he had a tripod R154 I think the 1st gear thrust washer issue was corrected by Toyota/Aisin by that point.

I would be willing to bet that if he had not been using slicks his R154 might have survived a lot longer. Many transmissions, even very strong ones, have limits to the amount of internal stress they can handle. The energy and stress has to go somewhere for that second or two before the car gets rolling and with slicks all of it goes right into the transmission gears and differential. That said I don't think anyone habitually avoids using slicks with an R154 at drag strips. It just depends on the amount of power and torque going through the transmission and how it is used repeatedly on a regular basis.

Any early R154 that has been built with MC and DM parts will hold 600whp. The internal pressure issue is a factor with the early ones and I've seen at least one example of how some builder tried to install JZX100 R154 vents to attempt to deal with that. The later tripod R154's deal with that internal pressure a bit better and should be good for the high power levels out of the box. Building one up with what is available for the tripods can't hurt either. The max ceiling is 700-750whp at which the transmission will still hold power but will be more stressed than what it was designed for by Toyota/Aisin well beyond the factory "280 horsepower" (they knew the transmission would see much more power than that) that they were rated for officially.


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Let us say , that is your ultimate goal .. you are never going above 600rwhp .. which will be around 500ft.lbs of torque , next question is what will be the use of the car ? A daily driver and becomes only a weekend warrior or will be a drag car too ?

for that power , a new R154 from Driftmotion they are selling for $2700 right now (and they just have a few left so hurry if that is your choice) is your best choice as long as you stick to that power goal... that is your end goal.

I know a lot of people using R154 and made over 700rwhp . But you will have to put into the mix the use of the car. If it is always abused like that in the drag strip , you will be spitting seals and trans fluid from those seals because of too much pressure and eventually go out.

But if it will only be used occasionally at 500-600rwhp which on the streets you seldom will be there at that power , IMHO the new R154 tripod version which is their newest version of R154 will do the work. I got tired of the R154 because of the internal pressure pushing out that seal and consequently oil leaking. We had a number of forum members in that situation too. That is why the final goal and use of the car is really very important in making your decision. The problem is if your power goal and use of car changes , then what you collect now may ultimately be useless so stick to that power goal.

Might as well take your time, plan properly and collect all the parts needed for that ultimate goal of yours or you will be on the same boat of many who collect parts ...build , tear down, sell parts , buy new stuff , build , tear down , buy new stuff ... till they get fed up and abandon the project altogether.
^^ Very good spot on advice from Gerry.

The Driftmotion tripod R154's on sale now are a good option within the range you've specified. It will be fine and being a newer and slightly updated design compared to MKIII versions it should exhibit less of the quirks that the early ones have at very high power levels. A good clutch kit is still required for 600whp though and a twin plate OS Giken or twin plate Exedy are worth considering to that end. With the expected 2k miles or so per year that you anticipate with your SC300 it would not be a bad financial choice either since it should last for many years at such low mileage.

But Gerry has made an important point: how will you use the car and under what regular conditions? And how often? He's already addressed all the reasons for asking this so I'm just reiterating his point since I very much agree.

600-650whp will be fine to use a newer R154 Tripod transmission with. Barring constant use of drag slicks and track abuse and slamming into 3rd gear as if it were a sledgehammer it will be a fine choice. And a new one means that YOU are the first person to break it in and define how it is used over its service life. That is an important factor also.

If you want to shoot for significantly higher power, say in the 700whp+++ range after not very long then in that case I do think looking into a Grannas kit to swap in a Tremec Magnum will be a better long term investment.

And I don't think a V160 is a poor decision in general. Even as rare as they are and as rare as the service parts are they are one of the best manual transmissions ever made. But looking at things from a performance to cost perspective it doesn't make the most sense unless there is a good reason to have one in your build

Both the R154 and Magnum transmissions are great options but which is better really comes down to the level of power that is desired and how the car is used.

With my car at only a possible eventual 400whp maximum I know I didn't need more than an R154. For my application it is more than bulletproof. I will not be using anywhere near all of its safe capacity. But I have to say... I really like the Tremec Magnum and I plan to get one of those in the future for another car project because I know it can handle ridiculous torque

Last edited by KahnBB6; 10-16-17 at 05:25 PM.
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Old 10-17-17, 07:25 AM   #380
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ATF Stage III auto tranny and be done. No worries.

Shane
you guys are all awesome and I truly truly TRULY appreciate the feedback. Talking with Shane for a bit last night I think my best route budget wise and power wise is to go with a stage 3 ATF trans with a 3200 or 3500 stall converter. Itís about $4600 for trans and converter and from what I read is good to 800ft/lb. the r154 is $2600 and then another $800+ for a good clutch and pressure plate, new flywheel... etc. and the tremec will be $6000+. V160/161 will be even more. My car is already auto so less swap work too. It wonít be as fun to drive but itíll still be A LOT of fun to drive lol.

So that is what Iím leaning towards. Just wanted to thank everyone again for the input over the last couple days. You guys are awesome.

Jim
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Old 10-17-17, 04:41 PM   #381
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Glad we can help you make an informed decision, Jim!

Staying automatic isn't the same *kind* of fun that a manual gives you but high power engine against a stout automatic that you can fully control when you want to can indeed be a LOT of fun

$4600 is getting up there though. That's the trouble with weighing all the strongest transmission options for these cars: looking at the actual final costs to set them up one option starts approaching the costs of the next stronger one up the list.

For what it's worth even at this late stage I'm set on a Southbend single disc clutch kit for my R154. They have options going up to 465-600ft lbs topping in the $750 range. But I still think an OS Giken or Exedy twin disc might be the best option going that high.

The built ATF automatic route is a good one and there is also a controller modification called a SupraStick which allows for manual shifting. I know Gerry has a couple of built ATF A340 SC's and at least one of those has been wired up with a kind of "paddle shift" style system using two cruise control stalks (which look extremely stealth) so that you can operate the transmission manually. Gerry, correct me if I am wrong but I recall you mentioning that at the HIGHEST power/torque level the built ATF can handle (800whp or so?) I think you mentioned that you would turn off the overdrive selector whenever full boost was used. Out of full boost it is fine to use overdrive. Is that correct?

......

This last note started as a quick fact to include but grew into a couple of paragraphs. So I'll just include it at the end since it's not related to the ATF A340 comments

(Also with an R154 or V160 it's recommended to disable/jumper the neutral safety switch in the clutch pedal assembly to start the car in neutral with no clutch depression to prevent wear accumulation that can lead to crank walk with a very high pressure clutch... unless a movement conversion has been added. W transmissions don't introduce this issue since they already have a different movement setup. Further, the old 5,6,7M engines don't have this issue with R154's at extreme high pressure clamping forces due to inherent design differences in the block, crank and bearings. Mind you... you have to be running a VERY uprated pressure plate with the original movement to cause any of this.

But the NSS disable is an easy insurance policy if you want to go overkill even though at normal/stock power levels it would take a very very long time to happen and is not common on "stock" 2JZGTEs. I've done it with my car just because I figured why not but it is probably a very overkill measure in my case. V160's are a case of the same possibility of risk because they share the same style clutch movement that acts on the rear JZ crank thrust bearing at startup... because there is a lack of oil flowing there for the first couple of seconds. This is why the NSS disable to allow no-clutch depression starting with an R154 or V160 especially with a very uprated clutch setup solves 95% of the risk of causing wear to that bearing over a long time. Unless of course there is a movement conversion included with that clutch which I think addresses the potential of the issue right at the source.

And still despite this quirk <and no synchro on reverse for early V160's or early R154's> many people swear by both the R154 and V160 depending on what their setups call for).

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Old 10-17-17, 06:48 PM   #382
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Started cleaning up the 1992 2jzge short block. Normal carbon build up after 25 years. But the acdelco top engine cleaner is making quick work of the carbon build up on the top of the pistons. I know many will tell me to rebuild the short block at this point. Truth is, I want to see how much power this 25 year old stock block will handle. If it pops, Iíll be ok with that. I have another block I can build if it does.





Dirty!


1 and 6 cleaned
Soaking with the top engine cleaner
Block before cleaning
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Old 10-18-17, 03:13 PM   #383
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Craig - I have pushed one of the ATF Built Auto Trans to 960rwhp / 780ft.lbs on a PT-7675 turbo . I have always been told by Patrick of ATF to keep it in the 850rwhp. But we all know its the torque that trans are rated. I was decided to replace that SC with a manual trans so am trying to push it up to its limit. It is still holding on. Once I am able to replace my wastegates springs and bolt in the Gen 2 PT-8385 ... I will push it more. But that probably would be in spring.

Jim - It is not the age of the block that matters . Knowing the mileage and inspecting the cylinders, rods , piston / rings and bearing should help you decide if you need at least to replace the bearings and piston rings. A very tired short block won't help if you will boost it and will just be wasting time. Might as well inspect and replace the consumables (bearings / rings) .
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Old 10-18-17, 04:23 PM   #384
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Gerry -- The strength of that built A340 is amazing. You may hit a record for power holding with it by next summer. You're somewhere just under 1,100hp crank. Even a bump up to 1,200hp crank while still holding would be impressive even if it will be a short lived achievement before you go manual.

Jim -- I'll second Gerry's suggestion to inspect everything before you begin building up. I was going to use my then-230k+ mile GE bottom end but ultimately decided he was right (after which point I learned I needed a GTE block anyway but that wasn't the first reason I got a new block) about bearings and rings being tired at that point to be effective for long with boost. With no boost these engines can hit 500k+ miles as you know but they are very under-stressed in NA tune. The Toyota rings and bearings are fine for a lot of power. ACL Bearing is out of business now but there is a lot of remaining stock in distributor inventories and people like their product with JZ's. I went with all new matched OEM bearings in my rebuilt block just for the tighter tolerances to run it as many hundreds of thousands of miles as possible but with a very high HP build and expected 2k-3k miles per year use a high quality non-OEM bearing (ACL or or Clevite) might be more in order. Nothing wrong with the strong OEM Toyota number matched bearings though.

You did say you'd take a chance on this block and just switch to your spare one if an issue occurred but it might be a toss up between that and just doing a standard rebuild with new rings and bearings.
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Old 10-19-17, 01:05 PM   #385
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Jim,

No reason not to go ahead and rebuild that short block. Not a lot of money and then it's over an done with. Why do all that work just to have to pull it out later ?? Plus your always going to be thinking when is it going to let go under boost.

Shane
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Old 10-20-17, 03:47 AM   #386
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Jim,

No reason not to go ahead and rebuild that short block. Not a lot of money and then it's over an done with. Why do all that work just to have to pull it out later ?? Plus your always going to be thinking when is it going to let go under boost.

Shane
you guys are right. I think my best bet at this point is to rebuild it. New bearings, rings, and maybe pistons. Is it safe to assume that the rods in this motor are strong enough? Side note though, thereís quite a few guys running turboed 2jzís with high miles who havenít re-ringed the pistons and replaced bearings and they seem to keep chugging along. ****ing time bomb? Or a testament to Toyotaís build quality?? Lol
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Old 10-20-17, 04:31 AM   #387
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^^^ that will all depend on whether the short block is healthy . Even if it had 300k miles, if it is very healthy then no reason to open it up or replace rings / bearings .

Did you do a leak down and compression tests before disassembly ? What where the numbers ? That would have help you decide if you need to replace rings .

A high mileage short block can run good as stock for more miles , once you start boosting an engine or short block , it is a totally different scenario. It can be a ticking time bomb if it is not very healthy to start with. Those tests mentioned above would have given you an idea.

Those stock rods and pistons at that power level of 700rwhp will take that power all day if they are in good shape. Since it is open, replacing rings and bearings is the least that should be done, IMHO. It is all about the tune that is why a good tuner is a must. Well of course , the use of the car and maintenance will play an important role after.

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Old Yesterday, 03:47 PM   #388
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^^^ that will all depend on whether the short block is healthy . Even if it had 300k miles, if it is very healthy then no reason to open it up or replace rings / bearings .

Did you do a leak down and compression tests before disassembly ? What where the numbers ? That would have help you decide if you need to replace rings .

A high mileage short block can run good as stock for more miles , once you start boosting an engine or short block , it is a totally different scenario. It can be a ticking time bomb if it is not very healthy to start with. Those tests mentioned above would have given you an idea.

Those stock rods and pistons at that power level of 700rwhp will take that power all day if they are in good shape. Since it is open, replacing rings and bearings is the least that should be done, IMHO. It is all about the tune that is why a good tuner is a must. Well of course , the use of the car and maintenance will play an important role after.
compression and leak down tests checked good. I can get numbers. Iím torn. I want to rebuild it, but my reason for buying this engine was so I didnít have to rebuild the weak 98 block.

Side note: these seats happened lol whoops.
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Old Yesterday, 03:53 PM   #389
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there you go ... if the leak down and compression numbers were good , imho , you don't have to touch it and should get you to your 600-700rwhp goals

those numbers tells you how healthy your short block is and how your piston rings are sealing
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Old Yesterday, 06:52 PM   #390
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I agree with gerrb. No point to rebuild it for no reason if compression is good. Those seats are amazing!
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