F Sport Ultra White - Rail Dust Paint Issues
08-09-17, 05:59 AM
#31
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Microscope photos
Yesterday we had a friend with a USB based microscope come over and photograph some of the rail-dust spots. It was quite eye-opening. We got lots of photos, but here's one that shows what we found over and over. In this photo on the left you can see a piece of iron material which is still embedded in the clear coat. It's the dark blob and you can physically feel it. In this case it appears that the clear coat is cracked. To the right of it is a hole in the clear coat where the particle used to be embedded, but has come free. In both of these you can see that the rust area has spread out under the clear coat, but doesn't appear to have reached bare metal.
-- Sue
-- Sue
Last edited by waudby; 08-09-17 at 06:06 AM.
08-09-17, 06:42 AM
#32
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
I would've tried the iron x unfortunately this was all done with a rinse less method as we did not have access to free flowing water. Car was washed with optimum no rinse and distilled water then prepped with eraser then gloss coated for long term protection and to aid in preventing these in the future.
The wheels, tail lights, headlights, fog lights, wheels, door jambs, trunk liner, and engine was all coated as well.
The wheels, tail lights, headlights, fog lights, wheels, door jambs, trunk liner, and engine was all coated as well.
08-09-17, 06:43 AM
#33
08-09-17, 03:47 PM
#34
Gloss coat is a coating. After you clay at the very least you should apply some form of protection either wax, sealant, or coating. Gloss coat is a coating.
It ultimately depends, after the removal of the particles, if your happy with the paint condition I would apply one of the above. If you want to polish you can do that as well then apply the above. If you want to have it repainted then I would wait at the very least a minimum of 30 days prior to apply protection on the repainted panel. I would always live with a panel with minor defects than having it repainted. Painted panels are usually never the same.
08-12-17, 12:04 AM
#35
Pole Position
i have an ISF in ultra white and suffer from these spots as well.i used to wash my car weekly but have been slacking lately due to my work schedule...
so i wash my car maybe once every 2-3 weeks. but i have a clear bra on my sideskirts which saves me the hassle of throughly cleaning it. i just use a clay towel (similar to clay bar) on my clear bra and it takes all of the spots off without putting any pressure. the back of my car near the exhaust is a different story, no clear bra on it so i try to clean it as best as i can without being too abrasive.
so i wash my car maybe once every 2-3 weeks. but i have a clear bra on my sideskirts which saves me the hassle of throughly cleaning it. i just use a clay towel (similar to clay bar) on my clear bra and it takes all of the spots off without putting any pressure. the back of my car near the exhaust is a different story, no clear bra on it so i try to clean it as best as i can without being too abrasive.
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waudby (08-12-17)
08-12-17, 07:33 AM
#36
Lead Lap
If you clay, you need to correct the paint before putting any coating on it. It's eye opening how marred the paint becomes after even the lightest claying.
08-12-17, 12:58 PM
#37
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
What do you mean by correcting the paint? One of my concerns has been will the clear coat get damaged by using a clay bar to often but from what I read it sounds like if it is done properly there will be no harm. Right now the dealer is offering to detail the car annually as they have never seen a case as bad as mine and corporate was useless and I mean useless in offering any solutions.
08-12-17, 01:06 PM
#38
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
The more we research my problem it seems to be not uncommon for Lexus owners to have rail dust to varying degrees. Yet my friends with German cars that are white or light color do not have this problem or may have a spot or 2 but not like what people in this forum are reporting. Why is it that Lexus corporate has not figured out how to have a better/harder white and silver paint? In my local dealership those are the top 2 selling colors. Why does corporate think it is ok to pass this problem onto the consumer? They exclude it from their warranty for a reason which of course you don't see until you have a problem. I need to do more research to see if BMW, Audi, Acura and Porsche excluded it in theirs too.
08-13-17, 08:45 AM
#39
This is not a Lexus issue. As a professional detailer, I can tell you that ALL cars suffer from industrial fallout/rail dust to some degree. On a case-by-case basis, it may be worse for some people due to the environment their vehicle lives in, brakes, etc. but it is not a manufacturer defect.
With regards to the perceived "hardness" of Lexus white and silver paint... it is quite hard. As an owner of a silver ISF, previous owner of a SGM IS250, and someone who has worked on many other Lexus paint colors including white, it is not soft paint. Lexus Obsidian Black is the only paint color I would describe as softer of the ones I have worked on.
For what it is worth, this is just one downside of owning a light colored vehicle. You can see contamination such as fallout and tar MUCH easier than you can on any other darker color. This is no different in my mind than someone with a black vehicle complaining about how easy it is to see swirl marks. It isn't that it is easier to swirl the paint, as all colors will suffer from superficial damage due to poor car, but it is just very easily visible on jet black.
So, if it is that big of an issue, you should probably opt for a different color in the future. Perhaps a grey (like smokey granite mica) is a happy middle ground for you as it doesn't highlight contaminants or swirl marks as easily as the extremes (ie. black or white paint).
With regards to the perceived "hardness" of Lexus white and silver paint... it is quite hard. As an owner of a silver ISF, previous owner of a SGM IS250, and someone who has worked on many other Lexus paint colors including white, it is not soft paint. Lexus Obsidian Black is the only paint color I would describe as softer of the ones I have worked on.
For what it is worth, this is just one downside of owning a light colored vehicle. You can see contamination such as fallout and tar MUCH easier than you can on any other darker color. This is no different in my mind than someone with a black vehicle complaining about how easy it is to see swirl marks. It isn't that it is easier to swirl the paint, as all colors will suffer from superficial damage due to poor car, but it is just very easily visible on jet black.
So, if it is that big of an issue, you should probably opt for a different color in the future. Perhaps a grey (like smokey granite mica) is a happy middle ground for you as it doesn't highlight contaminants or swirl marks as easily as the extremes (ie. black or white paint).
08-13-17, 05:28 PM
#40
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
This is not a Lexus issue. As a professional detailer, I can tell you that ALL cars suffer from industrial fallout/rail dust to some degree. On a case-by-case basis, it may be worse for some people due to the environment their vehicle lives in, brakes, etc. but it is not a manufacturer defect.
With regards to the perceived "hardness" of Lexus white and silver paint... it is quite hard. As an owner of a silver ISF, previous owner of a SGM IS250, and someone who has worked on many other Lexus paint colors including white, it is not soft paint. Lexus Obsidian Black is the only paint color I would describe as softer of the ones I have worked on.
For what it is worth, this is just one downside of owning a light colored vehicle. You can see contamination such as fallout and tar MUCH easier than you can on any other darker color. This is no different in my mind than someone with a black vehicle complaining about how easy it is to see swirl marks. It isn't that it is easier to swirl the paint, as all colors will suffer from superficial damage due to poor car, but it is just very easily visible on jet black.
So, if it is that big of an issue, you should probably opt for a different color in the future. Perhaps a grey (like smokey granite mica) is a happy middle ground for you as it doesn't highlight contaminants or swirl marks as easily as the extremes (ie. black or white paint).
With regards to the perceived "hardness" of Lexus white and silver paint... it is quite hard. As an owner of a silver ISF, previous owner of a SGM IS250, and someone who has worked on many other Lexus paint colors including white, it is not soft paint. Lexus Obsidian Black is the only paint color I would describe as softer of the ones I have worked on.
For what it is worth, this is just one downside of owning a light colored vehicle. You can see contamination such as fallout and tar MUCH easier than you can on any other darker color. This is no different in my mind than someone with a black vehicle complaining about how easy it is to see swirl marks. It isn't that it is easier to swirl the paint, as all colors will suffer from superficial damage due to poor car, but it is just very easily visible on jet black.
So, if it is that big of an issue, you should probably opt for a different color in the future. Perhaps a grey (like smokey granite mica) is a happy middle ground for you as it doesn't highlight contaminants or swirl marks as easily as the extremes (ie. black or white paint).
Is this a big issue to me, yes it is as I like my cars to look well loved and pristine. I have not met an individual yet from detail professionals, paint shops to the dealership who is not concerned about the condition of this car so quickly. It has gone through a complete detail already at the dealership and the all the spots returned in the same places. Just a very hard pill to swallow. Would I buy another white car again, yes but not a Lexus. Would I buy another Lexus again, most likely but not white as I think this is truly silly to have this much rail dust on a brand new car so quickly. I did look at the graphite mica color with a red interior which does seem like a more logical choice. I researched the heck out of this car and did not come up with anything as bad as mine except for around 2008 so I figured I was safe. I got the unlucky car that had a bad trip from the factory to Buffalo, sat in depot to picked up for who knows how long and then onto Northborough.
08-13-17, 06:24 PM
#41
I do not mean any offense by this, but it seems that your detailing knowledge is quite limited based on many comments in this thread regarding decontamination, paint correction, and paint protection... so let's take a step back and go after this step by step.
Based on your photos in your original post, the contamination is quite bad, there is no denying that, however as I understood it, you had mentioned that the spots can be (and have been) removed, and then return several months later. The fact that they can be removed with use of a clay bar or solvent indicates they are above surface bonded contaminants, and not beneath the clear coat. Detailing clay removes bonded particles from the surface of the vehicle, not beneath the surface.
It seemed your photos were all of lower areas along the sides of the vehicle. Is the contamination isolated to these areas, or is it also on the horizontal surfaces?
We typically see more contaminants accumulating on horizontal surfaces as that is where fallout will land and bond, however when we see contamination on the sides of the vehicle it is typically a result of things coming up from the wheels... tar, brake dust, etc. Brake pads and rotors can create a considerable amount of contamination that can become airborne... just check out how dirty your wheels become after a week or two of driving. This is transfer of particles from the brake pad and/or rotor to the wheels through the air. 100% of the particles do not land on the wheels, of course. Some particles will land elsewhere, including on the car. The sides of the car are nearest to the wheels, obviously.
As I skimmed through the thread, I did not see anything regarding inspections of brakes or changing of brake pads. If you are using OEM pads, I would absolutely switch to a lower dusting aftermarket option as soon as your pads are due for a pad change. In the meantime, I would purchase some Iron X (or similar fallout remover) and determine if this simple product will remove the particles.
Fallout Removal Products:
CarPro IronX
Griot's Garage Fallout Remover
Sonax Fallout Cleaner
GTechniq W6
How to Remove Rail Dust with CarPro IronX and a Clay Bar by Addison Good
In my opinion, if the contamination can in fact be removed as we would expect it to be using detailing clay and/or fallout removal solvents, I do not see this as any more than a minor inconvenience that requires some more personal upkeep. If, however, the particles cannot be removed at all there is an underlying issue that needs to be determined.
Based on your photos in your original post, the contamination is quite bad, there is no denying that, however as I understood it, you had mentioned that the spots can be (and have been) removed, and then return several months later. The fact that they can be removed with use of a clay bar or solvent indicates they are above surface bonded contaminants, and not beneath the clear coat. Detailing clay removes bonded particles from the surface of the vehicle, not beneath the surface.
It seemed your photos were all of lower areas along the sides of the vehicle. Is the contamination isolated to these areas, or is it also on the horizontal surfaces?
We typically see more contaminants accumulating on horizontal surfaces as that is where fallout will land and bond, however when we see contamination on the sides of the vehicle it is typically a result of things coming up from the wheels... tar, brake dust, etc. Brake pads and rotors can create a considerable amount of contamination that can become airborne... just check out how dirty your wheels become after a week or two of driving. This is transfer of particles from the brake pad and/or rotor to the wheels through the air. 100% of the particles do not land on the wheels, of course. Some particles will land elsewhere, including on the car. The sides of the car are nearest to the wheels, obviously.
As I skimmed through the thread, I did not see anything regarding inspections of brakes or changing of brake pads. If you are using OEM pads, I would absolutely switch to a lower dusting aftermarket option as soon as your pads are due for a pad change. In the meantime, I would purchase some Iron X (or similar fallout remover) and determine if this simple product will remove the particles.
Fallout Removal Products:
CarPro IronX
Griot's Garage Fallout Remover
Sonax Fallout Cleaner
GTechniq W6
How to Remove Rail Dust with CarPro IronX and a Clay Bar by Addison Good
In my opinion, if the contamination can in fact be removed as we would expect it to be using detailing clay and/or fallout removal solvents, I do not see this as any more than a minor inconvenience that requires some more personal upkeep. If, however, the particles cannot be removed at all there is an underlying issue that needs to be determined.
Last edited by zmcgovern4; 08-13-17 at 07:18 PM.
12-29-18, 02:18 PM
#42
Driver School Candidate
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: CA
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Hello,
After 14 months, I too have discovered as what the dealer refers to as "orange oxide spots" on the back bumper area of my 2017 Ultra White IS 350. I was told by the service technician this was possibly due to the metal in the paint, and when I brought up that I did not experience this with my 2004 RX330, he suggested that because in 2004, Lexus used oil-based paint, but due to EPA regulations, Lexus now uses water-based paint. The service tech also mentioned a customer with an RX had the same issue, they clay-barred, and that customer has not returned as of yet. Upon requesting to speak to his manager, the manager said he did not know why this was occurring. They proceeded to clay-bar my car and I haven't seen any recurrence, granted it's been one month since the clay-bar.
Background details: I hand wash my car myself at least twice/month, live approximately seven miles from the beach, my car is primarily parked in the garage, and at work, parked under a solar car port.
~Tracy
After 14 months, I too have discovered as what the dealer refers to as "orange oxide spots" on the back bumper area of my 2017 Ultra White IS 350. I was told by the service technician this was possibly due to the metal in the paint, and when I brought up that I did not experience this with my 2004 RX330, he suggested that because in 2004, Lexus used oil-based paint, but due to EPA regulations, Lexus now uses water-based paint. The service tech also mentioned a customer with an RX had the same issue, they clay-barred, and that customer has not returned as of yet. Upon requesting to speak to his manager, the manager said he did not know why this was occurring. They proceeded to clay-bar my car and I haven't seen any recurrence, granted it's been one month since the clay-bar.
Background details: I hand wash my car myself at least twice/month, live approximately seven miles from the beach, my car is primarily parked in the garage, and at work, parked under a solar car port.
~Tracy
Last edited by tracylc; 12-29-18 at 02:19 PM. Reason: typo
12-29-18, 02:50 PM
#44
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Very frustrating as my issue the RX is still occurring. The dealer details the car once a year in the spring and it looks great until the first time the roads are treated for snow or ice. After I drive on the treated roads they are back all over the entire car. I am the same about hand washing my car and now I have to look the other way all winter as it is a losing battle for me.
12-29-18, 09:10 PM
#45
Very frustrating as my issue the RX is still occurring. The dealer details the car once a year in the spring and it looks great until the first time the roads are treated for snow or ice. After I drive on the treated roads they are back all over the entire car. I am the same about hand washing my car and now I have to look the other way all winter as it is a losing battle for me.
If you want to learn more about rail dust and chemical decontamination, there is a wealth of information on Autogeek or Autopia detailing forums...best of luck!
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