GS2006

My Tires and Front End Woes Continue

My 06 GS430 just got new tires, new Electronic Steering Rack and Front End Alignment. All work by dealer except tires.
I noticed a difference right away with the new parts and just thought the tires grab and provide better feedback from the road than the old Yokohama tires. However I believe I have a problem. The car drifts to the right and most noticeable at highway speeds. Dang it.. I have had issues with radial pull/drift in the past, and this drift is not as bad. Three to five seconds and I must grab the wheel to keep it from changing lanes or going off the road. Not sure if it is getting worse or I’m just focusing on it more. This is driving me nuts.
I contacted the dealer and as expected they say the alignment is in spec:
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h1...s/IMGP5658.jpg

and as expected they recommend swapping the front tires to see what happens. Ugg…
Looks like another call to DT. If it turns out to be the tire/tires I will be extremely disappointed in Michelin Pilot A/S Sport Plus..

Tested my wife’s GS300 with 17” wheels that has new <1000 miles Toyo Versado LX and they track straight and an arrow on the same road. If it is the tires, should I have them yank all four and get something else? Is this more common than in the past? Second time with this type of issue in three sets of tires.
I looked at the Tire Rack Diagnostic test and it seems like this will take awhile sitting in the queue at DT. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=12
I did not know a rear bad tire would cause a pull. Any suggestions on how to handle this issue?

Any chance the steering rack is causing this?
Thanks

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

not if your wifes tires are fine...

I've never ever seen a rear tire cause a pull...

The tried and true way that works every time I've ran into a radial pull issue is to start off by rotating the side of the car that it pulls to... I would say 80% of radial pulls are caused by the front tire on the side the vehicle is pulling... the other 20% could be better described as a radial push, as they are on the front corner opposite the direction the vehicle is pulling...

If, for instance, you rotate the right side of the vehicle and the pull goes away, then the bad tire is the one now on the right rear... if it stays, then pretty good chance it's the left front tire... the way to solve for sure is to now rotate the left front tire to the left rear... pull still there, you've got an alignment/steering problem... pull is gone only after the left side rotation, then rotate the right side back to where it was to eliminate it... should still track straight and if it does, then you now know the tire now on the LR is the culprit....

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

you might just have a car that is more susceptible to tire issues than others... no real explanation for it other than wear and tear..

I would first try what I said above and if its just the one tire, then have it swapped out... if you can't get it to go away, then I would switch tires...

GS2006

Part of testing done. DT uses a different method than the one listed on TR.
Anyway, they rotated the right side (side of the drift) to the rear. Still have the same drift. DT now says to rotate the left side. If still drifts not the tire. I see this getting into a war with the dealer saying tires

It appears to me they only adjusted toe on the alignment. Can the machine be out of cal? Can toe out cause drift?

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

Discount is using the same way I have always used to check for radial pull (as I outlined above)... they are correct, if it still drifts, after rotating the left side, then its not the tires... toe will not cause drift, it will cause an uneven steering wheel which some will perceive as drift, but it will not cause a drift... I am pretty sure you have the correct definition of drift, which is when you let go of the steering wheel, the vehicle pulls to one side... the perception of drift that is related to toe is when someone holds the wheel straight and the vehicle tracks to one side, but if you hold the wheel a little crooked, it drives straight - that/s an obvious toe issue, not a true pull

It's always good fun when the numbers don't add up on alignments...

If the rotation of the left side tires does not fix the issue, then you simply take your receipts to the dealer of the rotations and explain you have a pulling problem. It is possible to have a pulling problem even though the numbers are good on an alignment... It is possible your vehicle needs a little more cross caster or cross camber than the typical GS, or that yours is just a little more sensitive than others. Either way, it's up to the dealer. If I recall, you had the tires on prior to the alignment.

What happened to the test drive that the tech got paid for to verify the alignment when done with the work? Even if it was pulling immediately after an alignment, they should have brought it to your attention that it could be a tire issue, and given you solutions. It sounds to me like the tech ignored the pull and just handed you the keys. I will not crucify him just yet though, as if it's very slight, he might not have noticed it depending on length of the test drive and quality of the roads around the dealership.

GS2006

The drift is not as bad as the one I had after a rotation with my first set of Yoko’s. Before I got the new tires, there was zero drift just like my wife’s GS300. Is possible the tech did not notice it or just was not paying attention?? I just can not say for sure it was not there between getting the new tires and getting the steering rack/alignment done. It may have been and I might have thought it was the gripping of the tires. Only drove about 30 miles between getting the tires and work at the dealer.

I will know shortly as I will be stopping back by DT to get the left side rotated.

Can the dealer’s alignment machine be out of spec or the tech not get the attachments flush with wheels? If rear toe is out, could that cause a push?
thanks

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

rear toe being out would cause the steering wheel to be crooked too, as the thrust angle would be off and the car would dog track down the road (the rear would be to one side even though the car seemed to be going straight)... older trucks sometimes do this, rear wheel drive vehicles that have been in an accident, and drag link rear suspension vehicles that have had frame damage might do this if there is no way to adjust the rear, they just set the toe on the front to compensate - the result is the steering wheel is centered, the vehicle doesn't pull, but if you were to look at the car/truck from the rear, it would appear to be going down the road crooked...

the one factor I didn't take into account is laziness... when I ran my shop, I made sure I knew all the shortcuts and cheats so that I could watch for them and make sure they weren't happening (the ones that mattered at least)...

for instance, on an alignment machine... some cars its a pain in the *** to set camber / caster... if its close, a lazy tech might "adjust" a sensor so that it sits on the wheel differently and gives a different reading... One slower day, I did an alignment on my car and tried just this. you can get a few degrees of camber and tons of toe just by moving the sensor so that it doesn't sit flush against the wheel... you can even get it to move a little just by pushing on it a little... on certain sensors, wind is even a factor, they are that sensitive...

on the newer alignment machines, they are so accurate because they self calibrate every single time the car is on the rack... they even account for a sensor that isn't totally straight, however, if the head isn't on the wheel 100%, there is no telling what you'll get...

report back after the rotation...

GS2006

Okay, the left side rotation results.
It still drifted to the right, but might not have been as bad. The wind started picking up so I think that might/could of some effect.
Went back and let them know it still was drifting but not sure if it was as bad. He went and talked to the store manager (his picture was on the wall) and they discussed some things. Came back out and said they will replace the front to tires. Kinda surprised me. After that I drove and it is better but I’m not sure it is 100%. Wind can still be a factor. I found it odd about what tires they replaced. The two tires that were originally in the back are the ones that got replaced. Do you find that odd?

I called the lead tech at the dealer. Talked to him a while about the alignment. He was not sure when the last time the machine was calibrated but would check with his maintenance guy but he said they have not had any other complaints. We talked awhile about the readings and discussed what ifs about the attachments and if they were not placed correctly. He said the machine will adjust and self calibrate for most issues and even compensate for bent rims. Also said there were a few things that could throw off the readings but when that happens the readings are really off the wall. He was saying toe was about the only thing they can adjust and maybe one other adjustment on the rear, but the front is fixed on these cars. He said they may be able to move the cage a little, but my readings are really good and that these cars have so much caster it would have to be off like a degree before any noticeable drift would occur. I was at another Lexus dealer and you could see their two alignment machines from the service area. Looked like it was real easy to adjust the toe.. a couple of wrenches.

We talked about the cross measurement and he said those look really good. He said they would check it again and also check to see if any brake sticking issues are occurring. I was hoping they had two machines but they only have one. He said Michelin tires are usually really good. He said years ago they would get batches of Goodyear tires that were bad.

He talked about putting my wife’s 17” on the gs430 to see what results I get. Would a bigger and wider tire give more pronounced results?

The wind looks like it is dying down, so I may go back out for another test drive.

GS2006

Forgot to mention, one tire that was replaced required no weights added this time for balance. I wonder what the odds are on that happing.

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

Happens quite often actually...

the machine will not self compensate for a sensor installed incorrectly... one time I did not get the sensor all the way on the wheel (tire was wide making it hard to get the sensor on the wheel all the way)... Got it best I could, thinking the same, that it would compensate for it... did all the procedures, checked caster, and the readings that came back were skewed - farther than I thought possible just by looking at the tires.... I reset the alignment heads, made fully sure I got them flush (a rubber mallet does wonders), and rechecked... this time all but toe was perfect... Had I not instinctively known that the numbers looked a little odd, there is no telling what the car would have done after the alignment..

I would try the wifes tires again and see what happens... a wider tire is more likely to tramline (follow grooves of road), but thats about it...

GS2006

Went to the dealer:

The lead tech, diagnostic tech and I went for a test drive. Good news is that they said: it is drifting. Good news stops there.

Diagnostic tech tells me there is an electronic calibration procedure to match the steering column with the rack. For some reason it is not mentioned in the TSB. He has a call into his field rep to find out why. When we were test driving he noticed the steering wheel was not straight, but he said the computer calibration should take care of that by matching the wheel with the rack. Did the calibration and the drift was still there but wheel is straight. I suspected the toe is off and they no that is not the case. Now, they do what DT did not want to do. They swapped the front tires for testing. Now the car either drives straight or drifts slightly to the left. Not as bad as it does to right when the tires are in the right direction.

That means I have received 6 bad tires. Dealer says they deal with this quite often but is rare for Michelins. Since they are directional, options are not there. I will be calling Michelin! This is just not right. Either these tires are a bad batch or the tolerances are not tight enough for this car.
Your thoughts?

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

damn, I feel for ya...

what about having the Michelins pulled off completely and going into a different brand...

some years ago, the Pilot Sport A/S's were not approved for use on Mercedes Benz's because of drifiting problems... turns out every single Pilot Sport A/S was built in such a way as to cause a radial pull... long story short, it has something to do with the alignment of the belts in the tires and it being much more sensitive on that particular car versus any other car.... My location was at least partially responsible for the TSB that stated it, as we had a high percentage of cars that were Mercedes and Mercedes owners also tended to like Michelin... after quite a few complete sets sent back with our causation, Michelin released a TSB to the same effect...

Your vehicle might have a similar issue that is not curable by just changing out tires...

GS2006

That was what I was wondering if it was just the A/S sport tires.
I called Michelin and they said the tire was “approved” for my car. Customer Care does not know much about particulars.

I asked why PS2s have a different part number for Audi, MB, BMW and I could not get a detailed answer. No PS2 specific tire for Lexus I wonder if the pull is the reason?
Any issue with PS2s since they are not directional? My rims are going to look like hell from all of this.

Michelin called the tech at the dealer and then came back on line and stated they will replace all four tires with whatever I want within Michelin, BFG or Uniroyal tire. What is the best Michelin tire or do you think I should go to a different brand? The dealer hints about me getting it done there, however I don’t think I want the dealer to do it. I have used DT for years and the fact I have already purchased road hazard from them. Maybe another DT store though.


Another thing that has me upset is the diagnostic tech was driving and said the steering wheel was not centered. Okay, I said the toe must be off. He said no, that this car has a program setting that can set the steering wheel where you want but did not know why it was not part of the steering rack TSB to align it (humm). He hooked up the computer that disengages the wheel from the rack and moved it. They did that and hosed it. Now if you hold the wheel straight it drives to the left. I thought they would of put it on the alignment machine and made sure the wheels were straight before doing that. They just moved it a tad to the right (their words). OMG!!!

Tomorrow I’m going back and making them check the alignment and make the wheel straight on the rack. When on the alignment machine, do the get the front wheels pointing perfectly straight with the frame and lock them so they do not move? This is about the only way I can see them getting the wheel straight with their ECU computer tool that disengages the steering wheel. He just wanted me to drive and have him move it a little until I thought it was straight.. NOOOO.

Can you say spitting nails.

GS2006

Car was put back on Alignment Machine. All reading still green but are a little different.
Very strange that such a high dollar tire (6 of them behave the same). It appears the only non run flat option with Michelin is the PS2. Not sure I should take the chance with this tire??

GS2006

Still trying to decide what to do.
Here is the reading after I requested another quick alignment check:
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h1...s/IMGP5662.jpg

I noticed the cross camber is almost on the most negative side of the range. Reading Tire Rack alignment information, is it correct that this should actually help a drift to the right?
Also the Cross Caster just a tad positive with zero being the midpoint. Again this should help right? I think Tire Rack stated .25 deg pos though.

Michelin has given me the option of picking any Michelin tire I want. I have not talked to DT yet and not sure if they will offer another brand. I only have seen positive reviews for the PS2, but sure like the tread warranty of the all season sense most of my driving is highway. If I leave it as is, will this only get worse as the tire ages? Lexus tech hinted these things rarely get better.

Also, if I get new tires installed, is there anything I can tell the tire tech to protect my rims more. Like telling him to use a clean rag or rubber between the clamp and rim?
Thanks