camillian

Hi all,

I have a set of brand new Amistad Type R's and new PS2's and I am experiencing steering wheel vibrations in between 70 and about 85m/hr. At first I thought it was because I didn't have hub rings. The shop ordered them for me and I went back and had them installed. When I left I still had the vibrations. I called the shop and went back in. They removed the two front wheels and rebalanced them. However they had problems balanceing them. It seems they couldn't get them to spin straight. After toying with one and using a different type of centre bolt on the balanceing machine (one with a 5 stud to fit where the bolts would go on the rim) it spun perfect. However the other wheel had a wobble even at slow roll on the machine. I was told this is called "run out". You could see it by just looking at it. If you put your hand on the tire tread as it spins you could feel the tire hit your hand as it made its rotation. I was told this will eventually damage the tire.

Apparently no wheel is perfect that's why you need balanceing and every wheel manufacturer has its own limits for a wheel being out of balance. The owner of the shop was surprised that an expensive wheel such as this is so far off. They balanced it anyway and I left. It is alot better now, but it is still not a smooth highway ride.

Is there something I am overlooking as far as the balanceing is concerned. Maybe a different type of balanceing machine?

AZDesertGS

iTrader: (4)

For the money you pay for rims....I say you return them and get a new set. That is unexeptable no matter what you spend on wheels. Where did you get the wheels???

rominl

iTrader: (4)

yes, all wheels could have some variation. my question is when they saw that run out, did they take off the tire and rotate the tire a bit and mount it again?

the thing is, don't just blame the rim. tires are almost as guilty in terms of variation, they have high and low points too. there is a superb knowleagable shop here that we go to, had a meet and they explained everything about wheels, balancing, and alignment to us. they mentioned about this problem you have. they said the trick is to find out the HIGH and LOW point of the wheel, and ALSO the HIGH and LOW point of the tire, and then mount the tire on the rim so they kinda balance out each other.

that might means couple times of mounting and dismounting, but that's the right way to get it right. and to be honest, i think a good shop should have started with those 5 stud together setup from the beginning to make sure it's perfectly centered.

before you have absolute data on the rim (exactly how far off are the high and low points, and also what's the allowable limits), i really wouldn't just go and blame the rims right the way and ask for a new set. amistad is a pretty big company and they are resaonably reputable. i know mark's car is perfectly fine

GSXOTIC

iTrader: (6)

Here is my .02

First of all, no aftermarket wheels out there is "TRUE" meaning no balancing is required (w/o factoring the tires yet). Sometimes I judge and differenciate a good quality (or TRUE)wheels versus not so good quality wheels is to see the amount of the weight required during the balancing procedure WHEN the exact spec. of tires are using (factoring the variation on the tires). Even that is not a guarantee but at least provide me with some idea. Of course, there is what Henry just mentioned about the high and low. If I am not mistaken on my prior education, that is why you see a little painted dot on the side wall of the tires. That is the most heavy part of the tires. Now you normally see that dot being mounted (on the experienced/professional shop) as far away from the valve stem (which mean straight across the wheel) since the part of the valve stem created the "hight point" on the wheel due to that extra weight.

My issue with this is that, Mario, for the shop you went to to have this check out, is it the shop you have your tires mounted and balance to begin with? If so, they should know such condition when they are balancing the wheels/tires before trying to investigate further when you take them back.

FYI, as Henry suggest. I do not have issue with my Amistad and I haven't even installed my hub rings yet. Keep me update with this, Mario.

camillian

No Henry,they did not dismount the tire and try again.

camillian

Yes Mark, it is the same shop that did the original install. The installer didn't say anything about the wheels when he first installed them. When I felt the vibration I called back immediately. The owner attributed it to not having the hub rings. After I got the hub rings and I still had the vibration. I came back and the owner investigated further with the re-balanceing himself

rominl

iTrader: (4)

umm.... mario, that says quite a bit to me. just my 2 cents.

for mark's comment, yes, on some tires you will see a dot / mark to note the heaviest part of the wheel, that's a good start point, but a good shop like the one i go to, they will do what it takes to do it right. i didn't know anything about mounting and balancing before, but after their explanation, and a real life demo on how to do it (to measure the high / low points), i was totally amazed at how it really works, and it made perfect sense.

they talked about that almost all wheels are NOT fully 100% balanced before putting back on cars. bottom line is for human beings, as long as the spinning mass deviation is within certain limit, then you won't feel it, and that's how people defined good balancing.

and still, mario, i am surprised that the first time you brought the wheels there, they didn't know how to correctly center the wheels already?! granted a lot of aftermarket wheels you haev to put them on the balancing machine differently to make sure they are centered, but imho they should know better.

i guess what the shop here said was right "these types of hunter balancing machines are all over the place, almost in every shops. but the problem is not about having this machine, it's about knowing how to use the machine"

GSXOTIC

iTrader: (6)

Mario, based on what you have stated I think it says a lot about this shop. I am sorry if this is someone you know but apparently they are less competent compares to other people that i have known. If the owner FIRST attributed it to not having the hub rings. That was already after he has balanced the wheels and tires in the first place (the initial visit). If the wheels and tires haven't been driven or subsequently damaged, why didn't them have problem at the first place????

Now the key is to resolve your issue ...... check your pm...

camillian

Re: wheels and tires
The vibration was there from the beginning and the wheel has no visible damage and is not bent. It is simply "out of Round" as they put it. This was discovered by dismounting the tire and spinning the rim on its own.

Here is the info I have. The place I went to is reputable. However the owner sent me to another shop to get a second opinion and actually called me to follow up. This shop is also dedicated with older experienced people working there. Anyway he dismounted the wheel in question and spun it on its own. The outside towards the face of the rim is fine, the center of the rim is fine, but the inner part is out of round. The machine showed it would take 1.4 grams of weight to balance the rim on its own without the tire. Mark you can see the wobble or hop when the rim is spinning. When he mounted the tire it called for 4.0 grams of weight. He then dimounted the tire and rotated it half a turn and re-mounted it. It now called for 2.2 grams of weight. He added the weight and it balanced ok. However between 70 and 85 m/hr the vibration is still there. He admitts that we need to replace that tire no problem, but he says the rim is still quite a bit off. Normally a rim will spin only being about .7 grams off. He pulled out a BBS rim and spun it. it was almost perfect. As to why this wasn't discovered when they first installed the wheels. I think the installer just slapped on the extra weight the balancer called for and the machine showed OK balanced. It is winter here and I realy haven't gone on the freeway yet until recently. I would have never guessed it would be the rim.

Please advise
Mario
Quote:

rominl

iTrader: (4)

i wonder if the out of round is caused by shipping or from factory. if 0.7gram is the limit for a normal wheel, then yes 1.4 is quite a bit more.

and if my calculation is wrong, 2.2gram, that's about 0.07744oz (damn units). i wonder if that's too much of a weight for balancing? i forgot how much i have on my wheel setup, but that looks pretty small to me already?

camillian

Henry, I was told that .7 grams is the norm that they see for a wheel that is off. 1.5 grams would be the limit. Mine is 1.4 grams off. Maybe I should have him try a new tire before doing anything with the rim. If you read my post carefully the tire is off quite abit also.

camillian

update
Ok vibration is gone.

I went into my garage and removed all four Amistads and put the factory wheels back on to check for a ball joint or loose control arm or whatever. I took the car on the freeway and it was OK no vibtation. So no problem with the car. I then put the rim in question on, oh yeah after having a new tire put on a couple of days ago and doing a couple of quarter turns with the rubber to get the least amount of weight. I put it on the front drivers side with the factory wheels still on the other three. I went on the freeway and great news still no vibration. I then removed this wheel and ran the other front wheel on the drivers side with the other three factory wheels and there was a very very slight vibration at 70. I did the same with the rear wheels running them one at a time with the other three factory wheels. and I had a very slight vibration at the same speed with both rear wheels.
I guess with all four wheels on the vibration multiplies. So I went back to the shop and had them do the same tire shifting and re- balanceing with these three wheels as they did with the one that was out of round.

I drove home and vibrations were gone. I hope they don't come back

Henry and Mark. Thank you for suggestions and PM's I would not have known about tire shifting, and by the way these PS2'd don't have dots on them to mark high spots.

Thanks,
Mario

rominl

iTrader: (4)

ummm, so i guess that's been a balancing issue?!