Bush Economy the worst since Herbert Hoover

[lex400sc]

Originally posted by 93LexoGS300
Uh, you quoted me above your statement. And no, I didn't take it personally.

Yes, but I don't read my own posts .

Originally posted by 93LexoGS300
Why do you always fail to see that Clinton was involved in the very beginning with Enron? Clinton and his administration have been buddies with Enron, they approved multi-million dollar loans to Enron, brought them along to on energy summits, listened to their advice on laws, and was glad to take their "donations". There is no doubt Clinton and his administration were involved, but it seems you overlook it because it diminishes your arguments about Bush.

Every Administration approves of loans, bailouts, and subsidies for American industry. It's common practice. Bush has done it at least a half dozen times that I know of. It's all part of the Great American Protectionist Machine.

It is standard practice for all politicians to take advice from lobbyists. You think a President or a Congressman can become an overnight agricultural/military/erosion/pollution/medical/industrial expert? No, they depend on various lobbyists to present them the facts and they make decisions based on that. Lobbyists, which are the lawyers for interest groups, have meetings with Congressmen every day. It shouldn't come as a surprise.

Donations as in campaign contributions? That I was not aware of, but Enron did give a lot of money to Bush also, so who's to decide which President carries more of the blame because of that? Is it determined by the dollar amount each received? Anyway, there is no argument to diminish about Bush because I never even brought up the Enron thing, that was one of YOU guys in trying to turn this into a Clinton thread. I'm merely saying quit blaming everything wrong about Bush on Clinton and quit turning this into a "my president isn't as crappy as your president" thread. You need to quit using Clinton as a patsy for all of Bush's faults. At some point, this very active president of over two and half years needs to be held accountable for the state of the nation and world. When will Bush be held responsible in your eyes? In the middle of the next president's term? Come on...

Originally posted by 93LexoGS300
As the president,it was Clinton's job to ensure the law is being enforced, which includes watching over companies that balloon in profits with such speed. It's gotta make a person say, "maybe something is wrong here." But of course Clinton wouldn't do anything about it, he was taking advice from Enron There's a fundamental conflict of interest when you are taking advice and passing laws that benefit the one you were taking advice from.

Well according to Bush, it would be the fault of the Head of the FTC and not Bill Clinton. After all, in every mishap, Bush has passed the blame to his cabinet officials instead of taking responsibility himself like a good leader should. Anyway, neither president has any way of singling out a specific company and auditing their accounting records under a whim. It's the duty of the IRS or FTC to enforce law, the President's duty is to make sure the enforcement agencies are enforcing. Everything you're accusing Clinton of doing with Enron, Bush was doing the exact same thing. So who do you hold accountable? Are you saying that Bush has no responsibility even though he's had the most recent dealings with Enron?

[LB Lex]

Originally posted by lex400sc
Everything you're accusing Clinton of doing with Enron, Bush was doing the exact same thing. So who do you hold accountable? Are you saying that Bush has no responsibility even though he's had the most recent dealings with Enron?

It's like pulling teeth, but you finally admitted (impliedly) that Clinton was involved in the Enron scandal. The question is who helped cause it? Clinton of course. Enron's bubble grew tremendously under Clinton due to his collaboration with Enron, and it wouldn't be long before it burst. Clinton would have been in deep sh t if it popped before he left office. Of course Janet Reno would not have prosecuted him, so he had himself pretty much insulated anyway. And I am not forgetful that Bush had dealings with Enron too. So who's to blame, the person who inherited such a mess? That's convenient (for a liberal).

Originally posted by lex400sc
It is standard practice for all politicians to take advice from lobbyists. You think a President or a Congressman can become an overnight agricultural/military/erosion/pollution/medical/industrial expert? No, they depend on various lobbyists to present them the facts and they make decisions based on that. Lobbyists, which are the lawyers for interest groups, have meetings with Congressmen every day. It shouldn't come as a surprise.

The difference is that Clinton and his adminstration (including the SEC) overlooked a company where hundreds of billions of dollars where invested into a company they knew was based on inflated profits and deceptive practices. The SEC turned their heads and didn't review Enron's filings from 1997-2000.

Originally posted by lex400sc
At least Clinton wasn't in cahoots with these companies, but somehow it's more his fault than Bush's right?

Originally posted by lex400sc
Bush didn't do jack to prevent Enron from it's illlicit activities.

Originally posted by lex400sc
Anyway, there is no argument to diminish about Bush because I never even brought up the Enron thing, that was one of YOU guys in trying to turn this into a Clinton thread. I'm merely saying quit blaming everything wrong about Bush on Clinton and quit turning this into a "my president isn't as crappy as your president" thread. You need to quit using Clinton as a patsy for all of Bush's faults. At some point, this very active president of over two and half years needs to be held accountable for the state of the nation and world. When will Bush be held responsible in your eyes? In the middle of the next president's term? Come on...

Why do we turn your thread into a Clinton thread? Because you post here stating our failed economy was all Bush's fault and that Clinton was not in cahoots with Enron and its ilk. Again, selective memory, which I've seen peppered throughout. It's pretty ignorant of the facts to say "quit turning this into a Clinton bashing thread" when it is obvious he played a major role in Enron and the subsequent economic collapse, yet you argue it is Bush's fault. It is equally ignorant of the facts to say "quit playiing the terrorist card" when you fail to see terrorism's lasting effects on our economy, yet you argue the current state of the economy is Bush's fault.

Bit is right, no president is completely responsible. I know Bush was involved in Enron. Yet, you fail to admit/recognize that Clinton played a major role in Enron.

[bitkahuna]

This thread is going nowhere.

[lex400sc]

Originally posted by bitkahuna
This thread is going nowhere.

Actually it was going down into the archieves until you revived it . Lucky me though... I just got back from Barnes & Nobles and while I was there I picked up Al Franken's new book: Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them. I'm sure glad that Fox News made a big deal out of this book otherwise I would have never recognized it . So curiosity took the best of me, and I sat down to start reading it. The Author's Note and the Introduction were a bit crude and unengaging, but after I started in on Chapter 1, I was hooked. I spent about an hour reading through the book until I came to the realization that I was probably going to buy it anyway, so I got up and went to the cashier. The book is very humerous and sarcastic at times, always witty, and he thoroughly *****slaps Ann Coulters, Bernie Goldberg, and Bill O'Reilly (so far). He made the hugest ass out of Coulters! Once you've read the two chapters on her, you'll never respect a word out of her mouth 'til the day you die . But what was most fascinating to me about this book is how perfectly it completely dismantles every arguement and misconception SCLexus has written in this thread. Seriously, I could quote SCLexus and paste chapters out of this book below it, and silence him for good . You could have named the book after him, it's that perfect. But because I'm not in the mood to transcibe 50 pages of plain text, I'll leave it up to you all to make the ties.

If you've followed this thread with any amount of interest, I suggest you at least stop by Borders or Barnes & Nobles, and pick this book up off the NY Times Bestsellers shelf and spend 15 minutes reading the first few chapters. If you are turned off by then, fair enough-shelve it, but I think most people will enjoy it. He isn't excessively verbose so it should be an easy, painless read, even for an 8th-grader. I recommend this book especially to Baw, tgg, Em, and the other voices of reason here, because it covers nearly EVERY topic that the right-wing uses to sling mud at liberals. It disproves many myths the right-wing often complains about and attacks us with. You'll definitely be a more effective conversationalist after reading thoughts from Al Franken.

[BAWLEX94]

I might definitely try and pick the book up..... Especially given that i read Ann Coulter this summer, and found that my eleven year old cousin could probably discount most of her fallicious arguments. The book really left a bad taste in my mouth, so i need something refreshing.

[Maeve]

This is the best debate I have ever seen in Lexus Lobby since I joined the club.

Maybe we should invite O'Reilly from FOX news to join in.

[2Lexus430s]

[quote]Originally posted by lex400sc
Actually it was going down into the archieves until you revived it . Lucky me though... I just got back from Barnes & Nobles and while I was there I picked up Al Franken's new book: Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them. I'm sure glad that Fox News made a big deal out of this book otherwise I would have never recognized it . So curiosity took the best of me, and I sat down to start reading it. The Author's Note and the Introduction were a bit crude and unengaging, but after I started in on Chapter 1, I was hooked. I spent about an hour reading through the book until I came to the realization that I was probably going to buy it anyway, so I got up and went to the cashier. The book is very humerous and sarcastic at times, always witty, and he thoroughly *****slaps Ann Coulters, Bernie Goldberg, and Bill O'Reilly (so far). I guess it good then that I don't watch or listen to any of them. I think the only things I really watch on Fox News is "Fox & Friends", "Fox News Live" , and "Hannity and Colmes". I think that Oreilly has a problem with spinning the things he tells people not to spin. I think he is as bad as Michael Savage..

[lex400sc]

Michael Savage is pretty bad. He was fired from Fox News because he made a gay-hate comment on the air to one of his callers. I actually used to listen to his local radio show on Hot Talk (back when I was young, dumb, and conservative ).

[2Lexus430s]

Originally posted by lex400sc
Michael Savage is pretty bad. He was fired from Fox News it was MSNBC that fired him because he made a gay-hate comment on the air to one of his callers. I actually used to listen to his local radio show on Hot Talk (back when I was young, dumb, and conservative ).

[BAWLEX94]

were you supposed to have said something?

[2Lexus430s]

Originally posted by BAWLEX94
were you supposed to have said something?

Yes... I did.... read the bold

[lex400sc]

Originally posted by SCLexus3.0
it was MSNBC that fired him

Right, well I don't remember because I don't really care for either news station. Aren't you the one that said MSNBC was a liberal garbage news channel? Hmm, funny because Michael Savage is a right-wing extremist shock-jock talkshow host, and he signed a pretty big contract to get syndicated. I'd say that's a poor investment for a nasty liberal news corporation. Maybe you could explain...

[BLexACK LS]

i would just like to remind you that Bush's cabinet and advisors already had the war with Iraq planned in the 1970's. And it was on the back burner even as he took office, but with 9/11 they were able to "justify" it.

[lex400sc]

1970's? That I was not aware of. Please enlighten me.

I know Donald Rumsfeld negogiated friendly relations with Iraq and began selling Saddam chem and bio weapons throughout the 1980's up until the 1990's. I know that Saddam used US WMD to gas the Kurds, and we did not denounce that action at the time. Instead we strengthened our trade relations with Saddam and Ronald Reagan even vetoed a US Senate initiative to block US technology from Saddam. I know that The Project for a New American Century was formed by the Bush cabinet in 1997 to devise a plan for engaging Iraq in a war. Some of the PNAC councilmembers include:

* Vice President **** Cheney, one of the PNAC founders, who served as Secretary of Defense for Bush Sr.;

* I. Lewis Libby, Cheney's top national security assistant;

* Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, also a founding member, along with four of his chief aides including;

* Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, arguably the ideological father of the group;

* Eliot Abrams, prominent member of Bush's National Security Council, who was pardoned by Bush Sr. in the Iran/Contra scandal;

* John Bolton, who serves as Undersecretary for Arms Control and International Security in the Bush administration;

* Richard Perle, former Reagan administration official and present chairman of the powerful Defense Policy Board;

* Randy Scheunemann, President of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, who was Trent Lott's national security aide and who served as an advisor to Rumsfeld on Iraq in 2001;

* Bruce Jackson, Chairman of PNAC, a position he took after serving for years as vice president of weapons manufacturer Lockheed-Martin, and who also headed the Republican Party Platform subcommittee for National Security and Foreign Policy during the 2000 campaign. His section of the 2000 GOP Platform explicitly called for the removal of Saddam Hussein;

* William Kristol, noted conservative writer for the Weekly Standard, a magazine owned along with the Fox News Network by conservative media mogul Ruppert Murdoch.


Learn more about PNAC and their plan for Iraq here: http://truthout.org/docs_03/022803A.shtml

[bitkahuna]

I see dead people...