RON430

As long as we are sticking with facts, if you want to view the stabilizer bars as the only component that controls the ride/handling, be my guess. But I would caution against taking any blanket statement about what bar will do what. It is getting obvious, although I haven't really gone back through the posts and gotten all the data out, that people who are not thrilled with the ride with the TRD blue bars have also put lowering springs and larger diameter wheels/lower profile tires on their car. The major impact of the stabilizer bar is roll stiffness. If you have affected impact harshness with a faster progressive rate lowering spring or a shorter sidewall tire, especially running 40 psi, the increased roll stiffness from the TRD blue may be objectionable. On my car with the stock springs, 16s, and bilsteins, I noticed no increase in impact harshness but did see a significant increase in roll stiffness, which is what I wanted. I would never recommend that you don't experiment with different bars but I think what we are getting to is what kind of test are you doing. If you have a race car the time slips can tell you if you have made the car quicker and the driver can tell you if you have made the car more comfortable on the limit, which may or may not make it quicker. If you are stuck in the, "favorite off ramp" test than you need to really think twice. Getting a vehicle to develop a wicked handling trait may be only a wrench turn away. As I said, with my setup, the TRD blue has the right balance for me. However, if I had a stiffer ride, I may go for a less rigid bar like the Sportivo or Daizen, although I wouldn't a ride so stiff that altering the roll stiffness affected the entire impact harshness - scary. In the early days of Trans Am, we kept working for the stiffest suspension we could get (if you think a GS is not a good platform try a late 60s Camaro or Mustang). Then, as we learned more, we learned the car got faster by letting the suspension work. Stabilizer bars, Panhard bars, Watts linkages, etc. weren't much use if the springs were so stiff the suspension wasn't moving much. If you take it to extremes you can peg the moronometer by just welding the suspension together - nice and stiff but won't handle worth a darn. By the way, this is where I found out about the rear bar affecting the roll of the front of the car more and vice versa. I assume it had to do with the moment arm of the forces. This didn't come from anything other than the race track with Trans Am/A sedan cars in the late sixties early seventies. I also raced A sports (Can Am) and Formula Atlantic but they were very different animals. I have a few suspension books I will try to check this weekend and I am trying to get a university friend enthused enough to do some mechanical modelling for me but that could be difficult (not a trivial model to set up or calculate). Going lower on spring rates and starting to tune the other components (with bar diameter, link attach points, bushings, etc.) was a way to pick up cornering speeds ( of course assuming you didn't go so soft you were on the bump stops all the time). But we were trying to get lower lap times, not comfortable rides or handling that was predictable for the average driver. The bilsteins alone made a tremendous impact on the GS suspension and the TRD blues gave me that last bit of roll stiffness with no increase in ride (impact) harshness. Once again, this was with the setup as I have described with my buttometer providing the input. When you start looking at one setup over another you might want to ask yourself if anyone has bothered to ask what other mods you have done to your car and what your goals are, whether the ride harshness is OK or not, do you intend to lower the car (if you already haven't), are you going to go to a different rim/tire size, are you going to a different vendor or tire, etc. The suspension is a surprisingly complex system with several components going together to give a certain balance of ride and handling. When you isolate one component, whether it is shocks or bushings or whatever, just remember there are a lot of other components in there working with it. When you start modding, you are making your own suspension. The factory has the guys (and some tuners) who put the whole package together and have a goal in mind for the whole package. Otherwise, you are engineering yourself, one bit at a time.

I hesitate to mention it but any of the guys with the Vtech and a big parking lot could do some lateral grip numbers with the various sways (assuming it gave a noticeable difference - not too convinced of that) which would get us one number. But the ride issue will always be there. And the buttometers are just not all calibrated the same.

lexforlife

iTrader: (7)

let me again post my findings seeing that iave the ltuned setup 18 in stagg set up with 275 in the rears and full bracing.

THE DESIGN OF THESE BARS JUST WORK AND WORK EXCEPTIONALLY WELL.

alot of r&d went into the design and the bars which makes them a functional part of the whole susp geometry. when one component is overtaking another the susp becomes out of balance. balance is the key to a good race car set up these bars allow the right compromise between compliance and control hence everything works in harmony. the trd were designed well but the design was focused on the race track with those smooth type conditions so compliance was never a issue.

daizens were made for the real world driving experience


they work and work well , period

RON430

Great, so now we know the Daizens are super and so are the TRD blues. Seems like the Sportivo's also get their share of applause. So pay your money and take your choice.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

This was one of the less objective posts I've seen in a while. If you own a Porsche for example, real world driving means exceptional handling with little to no body roll. A GS isn't a Porsche, granted, but I want my "real world driving experience" to have very flat handling, yes on the street, not a track.

I wouldn't settle for more body roll at this point and I love the TRD racing sways.

I'm sure the Daizen sways are a great product, but just a different compromise.

All suspension setups are a compromise.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Ron - hint, use the 'Enter' key now and then in your posts. Great info though.

lexforlife

iTrader: (7)

hey bit

i respect your opinion for thats just what it is a opinion. fact is fact and fiction is fiction. beleive what you wish but daizen has made me a true believer in the true understanding of realistic compromise.


they work nicely (hint hint , i have tried a few diff set ups already )

BLiu

Sorry Ron, I beg to differ. The TRD sways were the last suspenison item I put on my car besides 18" rims and H&R springs/Bilstein shocks. When I switched from stock to TRD's I felt BOTH roll stiffness and impact harshness increase. When I switched to the Daizen from the TRD's, impact harshness DECREASED while maintaining good roll stiffness comparable to the TRD's. I am assuming that impact harshness is the same thing as what I refer to as ride harshness. There was a perceptible difference. If you do a search on my posts a while back you will see that what I posted then is exactly the same thing other people are starting to feel as well when they switch from TRD to the Daizens.

I think it's best if you tested a Daizen set before you offer opinions unless you disagree with a few of us here who can swear we feel the difference in ride harshness between the TRD blue and the Daizens...

Once again, for all those who love their TRD blue sways - great!

For those, looking for a step down in ride harshness while maintaining similar handling characteristics as the TRD sways, then the Daizens are right up your alley. A few of us can already witness the difference. Please don't discredit that.

For those looking to buy aftermarket sway bars - you now have a choice!

Brent

Kajukenbo

Here is my personal experience and my analytical approach to the comparison:

my mods in order:
1). Stock
2). + L-tuned shocks and springs:
Ride comfort - not much difference compare to (1).
Body roll - good improvement compare to (1), but not good in high speed or in an aggresive turn.
3). + 18" wheels:
Ride comfort - can feel the road noise a little more compare to (2)
Body roll - same as (2)
4). + Polyurethane bushings
Ride comfort - almost same as (3), unless I hit a big pot hole going 40+ mph
Body roll - improvement from (3) especailly in high speed, but not good in an aggresive turn.
5). + 20" wheels, - (3)
Ride comfort - drastically reduced compared to (4). I can really feel the road noise. CD starts to skip.
Body roll - same as (4)
6). + Daizen sways (same bushings as (4))
Ride comfort - same as (5)
Body roll - great improvement from (5). Good in high speed and in an aggresive turn.

As everyone here has already pointed out, ride comfortness is contributed through many different components in a car. They are, however, not all weighted equally in contribution.
In Ron430's case, he has kept the stock springs and the 16" wheels which provided much of the comfortness to his ride. As a result, the effect of the TRD race sways didn't translate much problem for him. Ron's stock setup has obviously minimized the potential for reducing the ride comfortness due to the stiffness of the sway bars.

In my setup, since I no longer have the luxury of the stock setup in both springs and tires, the ride comfortness due to sway bars will definitely be more visible. Thus, I picked Daizen sway bars to reduce the chance of further degrading the comfort of my ride.

Based from other members' feedback who had TRD race sways and changed over to Daizen sways, one main difference is the ride comfortness. Body roll didn't seem to be a factor between the two. It also appeared that those who had made a change over, also seemed to have some other modification in their ride that had affected the ride comfortness like myself.

Summary:
If a person has maintained most of the components in stock form, either TRD race or Daizen sway bars would work just great.

If a person has other modification that already degraded the ride comfortness, Daizen sway bars appears to be the better choice of the two if one doesn't want to further degrading the comfortness.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

rominl hasn't even given his opinion yet, so you're jumping the gun some. As I said, I'm sure the Daizen sway bars are a great product, but you get nothin' for nothin' - if it's more comfortable, it isn't as capable in handling.

Enjoy the limb. Not sure where you think I said that - of course the stock and TRD bars have a HUGE difference in stiffness.

I don't buy that you can reduce roll without increasing stiffness. The Daizens sound like a great compromise for those sensitive to the stiffness of the TRD blue racing sways which are definitely stiff. I avoid certain very uneven side roads for this reason because I'll get 'jiggled' to death.

DoubleWhoosh

Very good observations Kajukenbo, and very analytical!

Remember though, the purpose of this thread is to bring facts to the table. The fact is, no matter even if you have everything stock on the car except for TRD sway bars, I cannot believe that anybody could say that the ride harshness would be the same as with the stock bars. This is irrelevant to the 70's buttometer measurements that we keep referring to here, we are talking about a substiantially noticeable change in ride quality.

Once again, I personally wouldn't have much issue with the increased harshness myself, but we are trying to lay out objective (or at least somewhat objective) stuff here. So people's "acceptance" of the TRD ride quality is not relevant.

On Kajukenbo's point, yes the increased harshness could definitely push someone past the point of tolerance if it was on top of other modifications as well. But that is a point for another thread...

Once again, back to the point of this thread, the handling and performance with the two are pretty much the same, ride quality becomes stiffer with the TRD. The Sportivo are definitely soft, and do not affect the ride quality (logical and obvious) but at the same time they are quite conservative on the tuning, and do not compare to these two other bars in terms of performance.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

DoubleWoosh - Kajukenbo never had TRD sways so his feedback is irrelevant by your 'objective' standards.

DoubleWhoosh

If you say this, you obviously do not have extensive experience with suspension design and tuning at the engineering and research level. To a certain extent, yes you are correct, but it is not a neanderthal type formula that more stiff = better performance or that more stiff = better handling.

Here's a tidbit for you, that certainly contradicts what you said...

on the 93 Ford Mustang Cobra, the suspension was scrutinized very carefully to extract more performance than with the existing GT and LX versions. The stock 5.0 bar is 1.250" solid, a pretty serious bar for a stock application. The SVT engineers actually put a SMALLER bar so that the car would be able to handle better and turn better lap times. Now the actual technical reasons for this could go onto pages and pages of text, but in a nutshell, these guys had unlimited resources, unlimited track time, unlimited testing time, and that was what they did.

DoubleWhoosh

I never said this, are you trying to instigate something now? sheesh

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

We can all find anecdotes to make points but overall handling is obviously impacted by many factors (springs/shocks/dampers/braces/bars/wheels/tires/steering/weight distribution/etc.), and people's suspension goals are different.

Just to be clear, I *believe* people who are saying the Daizens are more comfortable than the TRD blue sway bars all other things being the same. I'm not convinced they will have the same overall handling though, but most people never drive their vehicles more than probably 5/10's of handling capability.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

With all respect to Kajukenbo, you praised his observations and analysis, by which I assumed you meant they somehow contributed to this thread's subject, but they don't really. Not trying to start anything, just clarifying and trying to keep focused.