scblackout

iTrader: (2)

I went to the shop today to get a lance alignment done and the tech quickly realized that he couldn't get the settings exact. For the front drivers side there is a bar he said that needs to have the 'thread hole area' extended, and on the back he said we were at the max.

Here is the lance specs:
http://mkiv.com/techarticles/lance_alignment/index.html

Here is where we got the car to:
Front
Camber -1.0 , -1.0
caster 3.3 , 2.6
toe 0.05 , 0.06
Total toe = 0.11
Steer ahead = -0.01

Rear
Camber -2.1 , -2.3
Toe 0.26 , 0.29
Total toe - 0.55
Thrust angle -0.01

My rear tire size is 255x40x18 and we did the math as best we could for the rear. Converting from mm (1mm total in rear) to degrees is where we got a little stuck.

Question:
As we couldn't hit the lance alignment specs, does anyone know what I am missing out on with my setup above, vs. a full lance alignment?

Are there adjustable parts that I need to buy for the car to get it to a proper lance alignment?

I can say that the car drives so much better than before. Each step I am taking so far is a night and day difference from where I began. It's a bit to wet out this week to push the car enough to see how it really behaves, but for what I have been able to do, it is great. If anything I notice a slight pull to the right, but only at times. It doesn't ever seem to pull to the left though. I'm only talking a little bit of pull here with the road, nothing major, but I do wonder if it is due to the uneven caster up front as we took it as far as we could without mods to the suspension.

We did check all the bushings with a crowbar and they all seem better than average.. There really isn't much play anywhere, though it could use a refresh this spring.

scENFORCER

Yeah I couldn't get the specs exactly either, the SC's stock adjustments just don't go that far and adjustable parts are needed. Just get the specs as close as you can.
Having said that, I've had these specs for about 8 months and love them, I noticed a big change right away in the handling of the car. I adjusted the coilovers at the same time, about a week after getting my Volks. Night and day difference, I love it!
As for the pulling to one side, the shop doing the alignment is able to correct that without changing the specs, you'll just have to go back to them.

SC3coupe

iTrader: (4)

Not sure which value you are concerned, is it the caster.. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Mine was not 100% either especially camber, but it depends on how low it is, without camber kit.

Here is mine

scblackout

iTrader: (2)

What adjustable parts do you suggest?

I do have bc coilovers and the ride height is not very low as I am much more concerned on performance than being low. I basically have 2-2.5 fingers between tires and wheel wells. Dampers are 8 notches off stiff.
Thanks for the printout. The front caster is maxed out without having to extend a bolt hole on some arm on the drivers side.

For the rear, we were only guessing as we couldn't figure the math out properly for the rear tire sizes. It's the 'arcsign' part of the math we got stumped on.

What I do remember he said is that the lower arms in the rear where they connect to the subframe, there is a large bolt with a washer that is flat on one side. He couldn't go further due to the washer. My best guess is that I need to source some type of adjustable rear lower arm, but need to find out for sure.

SC3coupe

iTrader: (4)

My cars pulls just slightly too, the control arms are 22 years old on mine cannot blame some of these things.

You do not have to go exactly "lance", it is just a starting point to get rid of tail happy characteristics on some cars, the actual behavior would be due to suspension compression setting, ride height and sway bar stiffness. Good starting point meaning your camber isn't way negative, and the toe isn't out (toe out will KILL the inner treads in no time). I think the caster was supposed to increase the wheelbase a tiny bit more to give stability.

I have lowering springs meant for a supra and the rear is about a finger lower than the front and the camber is negative enough and I always carry some extra stuff in the trunk, so I have very good grip of the rear. With the lance alignment, it's a very safe setting and good tire wear for me. To me tire wear is pretty important. I want a little tighter in the rear but I won't be pursuing this via alignment settings. It will be through a rear sway bar. YMMV. Mine is a commuter and not pushing autoX limits etc.

Ali SC3

iTrader: (10)

Suspension thread moved to the suspension sub-forum.

Sometimes they wont be able to get it that far in the front but the idea is to dial in at least 1 degree of negative camber on the alignment as the stock alignments they will sometimes leave it at 0 on the generic spec sheet as an acceptable range and some bad alignment shops will think having 0 camber is a good idea (its not). Caster will vary some they all sort of move around together.
They should have been able to get that toe in closer to 0 and would possibly affect the caster, but its close enough I suspect it would drive good, as in its balanced left to right.

The rear is fine as long as its the same side to side, they don't typically always change that much before and after if they adjust it at all. the problem is more in the front when you get lowered.
Also the supra has different length arms in the rear than our cars so the numbers are a little different, but the way the alignment is setup from the factory is already negative so you just want to ensure its the same side to side to make sure no one slid into a curb or something.

If I remember right, the more negative camber you get in there the more the car is going to naturally turn following the curve of the track, this is why sometimes it will feel like its pulling to the right its just acting more responsive to the road. it also affects how easily the wheel returns to center after a turn. I personally like that the car follows the road a little sharper it sort of flows really smooth on the highway. It is annoying at times on bad roads but its not really a setup meant for that sort of thing anyways. I have found my tire wear to be perfect with supra tt wheels and 245 up front and 275 tires out back.

scblackout

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for all the help guys. I am glad to see that my final numbers are close enough and accomplish the goal. Mostly I was just wanting to make sure that something was not far off enough that I was then missing out on the benefits of a lance alignment.

The pulling to the right is VERY slight and not consistent. There were parts of the highway where there was zero pull and parts where it showed up. I found that if I got out of the ruts a little that the pull would change.

The best part is the car no longer feels like it's floating with a mind of its own. Even on the damp roads, it feels like a slight understeer and the backend is behaving without stepping out on me. I won't have a final opinion until next week when the rain is gone and I can switch tire compounds.

If there are adjustable parts I should buy to make it even better, please let me know what works the best and I'll get it done.

SCV8

I had tried some camber in the front, and it never made enough of a difference performance wise to justify the increase in tire wear. If I were on a track all day, things may be different, but for the street I left the camber nearly straight up, and it handles great, could hit 107 inside the Bell St tunnel here in Seattle. I have Bilsteins and stock Supra coils, control arms, rear bar, staggered whl/tire combo. Absolute minimum toe in helps too...
I got nearly 40K on a set of tires...

oldManTan

so does a lance make the car understeer slightly because i like that my back end kicks out sometimes.

t2d2

iTrader: (8)

From the Lance page:

"The car will still under steer slightly, but the aggressive driver will find much more predictable handling and significantly better feedback from the car."

BTW, two things of note that may help people trying to make use of the Lance page for the first time:

1) If nothing appears in the white box with the "To Calculate Degrees of Toe When Given mm of Toe:" heading, highlight the box with your cursor. It's white text on a white background, at least in my browser. I thought he forgot to put the calculations on the page at first...

2) To save yourself a bundle of time, just plug your tire dimensions into any ol' tire size calculator to get the diameter in inches. Convert that to millimeters and plug it into the last line of the calculations. I confirmed that his step-by-step calculations will get you to the same point.

If anyone's interested, I could share a single-page PDF I made up with the Lance specs and some supporting explanations from this thread and a few others, for bringing in on my next alignment. I always figure it's best to have stuff clearly written up when asking a tech to do something outside factory specs. The guy at Firestone who did my alignment a couple weeks back actually said he wasn't crazy about the factory settings but went with them as close as possible, and wants me to come back in a month to get it dialed in a bit better. (Gotta love their lifetime alignment deal!) So, I think he'll be quite open to trying the Lance specs.

Ali SC3

iTrader: (10)

Don't worry, short of removing the wheels and tires completely there is nothing that will make the SC not oversteer if you turn the wheel and give it some of the go pedal.

scblackout

iTrader: (2)

If you have the pdf available, please post it. I am quite happy with the current setup compared to where I began, yet if there is anything I can do to make it even better I am willing to try.

t2d2

iTrader: (8)

Here ya go! I customized the tire size measurements for my car, since that's what I would be handing over to them along with the sheet, so you would want to substitute in your own numbers if they differ. I tried to make it as concise and informative as possible, so the tech can quickly absorb the important info at a glance, but let me know if you have any suggestions for improving on it still.

FWIW, the 245/45-17 I included is the exact same diameter as the SC's stock wheels.

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

Finally getting around to this. I've wanted to post the modified Lance specs I've been using for my car for a while now in case it helps someone.

The regular Lance settings are very good but a couple of years ago a Toyota alignment tech in Florida with a lot of prior experience as the main alignment man for Corvette C5's and C6's at a local Chevrolet dealer convinced me to try a very slight modification to these settings to reduce the tire wear a bit more with 100% street use, especially since in the rear suspension it's not quite possible to get the factory Supra TT or Lance settings dead on.

Since this is a slight deviation from what's accepted, take some time to compare these notes yourself or with your alignment specialist. If anything, though, it's on the less aggressive side while still providing most of the better control from the Lance settings.

Someone above mentioned that they'd miss the tail-happy personality of their car if it were made too neutral. I've found the stock Lance (close to them anyway) and these settings to provide great predictable control and plenty of ability to kick loose if you want that and very deliberately tell the car to do it. I've also found tire wear with these settings to be very reasonable.

Again, my car sees 100% DD use. These might not be ideal for a car set up more aggressively for weekend track days.

I'm curious to hear what you guys think. I'm not opposed to rethinking them again in the future.

Vehicle notes:

Factory Supra TT staggered rims
235/45-17 front tires
255/40-17 rear tires
Non-lowered suspension on Bilstein AK shocks
Factory SC300 front swaybar
93-96 22mm Supra TT rear swaybar + subframe mounts
LSD rear diff

Slightly Modified Lance Alignment (ranges are given for the deviated settings):

Front
Camber: -1.0 degrees
Caster: +5.0 degrees
Toe: 0.03-0.06 degrees

Rear
Camber: -0.6 to -0.04 degrees
Toe: 0.19-0.21 degrees

scblackout

iTrader: (2)

KahnBB6: Thanks for the added info. I actually swapped my rear subframe with an mkiv subframe because as you note we can't quite get there with the lance alignment on an sc. For anyone who is really modding their sc, it seems to be a worthwhile project. Having wanted to replace all the bushings in the car, it just seemed to make sense to do the subframe swap at the same time as I knew I would never regret it and the cost was minimal.

With the prior setup I noticed my rear tire wear pattern was not very good after only a few k driving. The car is parked for the winter so doubt I can give any wear info with the actual lance in use now that I had the adjustment level needed.