PMINTY

Before I submit my order for these Hawk Ceramic Brake Pads does anyone have a review or comment about them? Let me know; or let me know what your preference for performance brake pads are ....Positives and Negatives about your decision. Thanks in advance!

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

Are you actually using the car on a race track? If not there'll be no "performance" difference between these, the OEM pads, or whatever autozone is selling. Only differences will be service life, feel, and amount of dust producted.

FMJ IS

not sure about the Hawk Ceramic, but i use Hawk HPS on various cars, and they provide good bite, no to low dust, good in winter, and track-able as well....

recommend it against OEM for sure!

PMINTY

@Kurtz what exactly do you use and what's the difference between track and street? Brake performance is brake performance as far as I'm concerned. Stopping on a track and stopping on the street is not very different. As far as stock pads go, I'm sure there is a difference with performance pads. This isn't my first set of brakes that I've changed, just haven't done it to my IS. Lastly if you are buying parts from autozone I'm not trying to hear your invalid opinion...#JustMyMotto-no offense

mbeach

Noisy and dusty when cold, more resistant to fade when hot. I used to use them for autocross events on my S14a.

There can be a world of difference when selecting brake pads. As Kurtz mentioned, service life/feel/dust, but also noise, fitment, and the abrasive nature of some pads on your rotors.

For daily driving, there is/should be, none better than the OEM pads. For spirited driving, on often hot brakes, step up to a performance pad. Keep in mind, track pads suck on the street when they never have a chance to get up to their designed temperature.

I've always had best luck with EBC pads, green low dust for the wife, and yellow sports for me. Had a good set of EBC reds too, but they tore up rotors like nobody's business.

Some compounds are just noisy, even when you spray them down with anti-squeel (the tacky blue stuff) and properly shim them. The Hawks always seemed to fall into this category. They are a good pad, and very popular however.

I've got a brake job (my first on the IS also) in the near future. If I can find EBC greens, that's what's going on.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

Yup, what mbeach said.

There's quite a lot of difference stopping on the street vs on a track.

On the street you're not repeatedly stopping from 100+ mph back to back to back without the brakes ever getting to cool.

Thus you don't care about fade resistance, because the brakes won't fade in normal street use ever.

On the track you want a pad that handles consistent high heat better than stock- but that pad won't be ideal for normal cold-pad street use. It's also likely to be more abrasive on the rotors for that 'track bite" people want on the track, but also means shorter brake part service life- bad for a daily driver.

And for a normal panic stop (which is what you really care about on a street car) the "performance" pads will do exactly nothing for you to stop any shorter, so for a street car you want a pad that works well across normal-use temps, offers good service life, and low dust.

That would be the OEM low-dust pads (which is what I use, since I don't take my IS to the track)

mbeach

It should be mentioned that brake fade is no joke.
The first time it really hits you, you'll know it. I almost drove a Vishnu WRX through a slow poke Cavalier on SE Ohio's Dragon's Tail.
I stepped up to StopTechs and ATE fluid (Super Blue) the very next day.

BUt since I don't drive like that anymore, low dust street pads and plated rotors do just fine. My brakes are stone cold 99% of the time, a soft grippy pad is what you want for the drive to work.

PMINTY

I understand all of that thanks, but i never mentioned race ceramic pads. There are ceramic pads for street applications that can be used for daily driving. I might be wrong about these pads maybe they are race ceramic pads. I think i will go with some ebc greens. thanks @mbeach. I've used big brake kits as well as on the street without a problem on other cars. I guess it's different. P.S. @mbeach It's Freezing in Ohio of course your brakes aren't up to decent levels of heat. Im In southern california, Im in 80degree + heat 45% of the time the 95degree + another 40% of the time 15% of the time it's 70degrees or under. So heat isn't an issue. I'll take it back to my Karting days if i really need heat.lol Thanks for all the feedback guys

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

To be clear- pads and big brakes are two different issues:

You don't want race pads on the street because they don't work well with cold brakes (and this doesn't mean 35 degrees.... this means brakes that haven't been heated up well past room temp even in CA)

Big brakes on the other hand are perfectly safe in normal street driving, they just add exactly no functional benefit for that type of driving and usually are a significant financial cost.

(likewise, slotted rotors are good for the track, but inferior to blanks in normal street use... and drilled rotors are inferior to both in all uses)

reyoasian

iTrader: (2)

im planning to get hawk hps to replace oem ones once they wear out

PMINTY

@Kurtz yeah I meant being in the desert where we can drive over 80mph on the streets. That's a constant speed. How do you feel about Rotora Street Pads? As far as Big Brake kits; cost isn't that big of an issue for me. I'm always down for Slotted Big Brake Kits. I might put on Stop Tech or Rotora at one point in time.

mbeach

StopTech was always good to me. I don't know anything about Rotora. They haven't been around as long, and other than their "bigger is better" looks, I don't know anything about their science.

FWIW, a larger diameter rotor will increase brake torque, provided your tires can take it.

If diameter didn't matter, every vehicle from a Smart to a Super Duty would have the smallest rotor possible in an effort to reduce weight and material costs.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

Except that street legal tires generally can't take it.

The tire will lock/engage ABS long before your giant rotor is exerting maximum force.

Long before even your stock one is.

I can't think of any car make in the last decade or two at least where the stock rotors aren't large enough to lock up the wheels on any street tire... certainly none made by Lexus.

Hence why larger rotors are entirely useless in street driving.

And even on a track most folks aren't going to be using tires on a 2IS that even the stock brakes can't lock up.... larger diameter there is only useful for heat management, not "more force"

mbeach

Thermodynamics and physics would disagree I'm afraid.

Torque is increased thanks to the greater moment.
This greater force is used to your advantage by your ABS. Tire friction serves only to feedback to the ABS system and the driver. Sticky tires mean a busy ABS solenoid, to the point where you'd be better off without it.

Brake fade can occur in one single stop. Not a panic stop, but a long stop where your puny brakes will heat up rapidly. Like diving into a curve. Larger surface = more resistance to this heat buildup, and quicker dissipation in preparation for the next curve.

I lived in NC for 8 years, I know there's curvy roads there too.
Drive a proper sports car with "hand of God" brakes and you'll know what I'm talking about.

Like it or not, even our glorious Lexi were designed with input from accountants. It's a good thing that there are enthusiasts to save us from them.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

they wouldn't actually.... but I'll get to the math of why you're wrong in a minute...

Uh... what?

Tire friction limits the stopping distance of the car. Period.

A billion times more braking force at the ABS limit is 100% wasted force because you can't slow down any more than the tire/road interface is capable of.... that's regardless of brake force.

That's the whole point here.

It doesn't ask about your brakes (pads, rotors, or anything else) because it doesn't care about them.

It asks about the coefficient of friction between the tire and the road.

As long as your brakes can lock the wheels (or engage ABS for cars with ABS), which even the stock brakes can do, then "better" brakes won't reduce stopping distance at all. They can't in fact.

Because the brakes don't stop the car, the tires do.

In normal on the street use? No, they can't. Which again was our topic.

On the track when you're dropping from 150 mph into a turn, and then doing it again 30 seconds later, then again? Sure. Absolutely.

Which is explicitly what I already said... but then that has nothing to do with force, it as to do with the heat capacity of the rotors. As I also mentioned.

In the mountains? Sure, if you don't know what those nice paddles are there for.

That's the one time the paddles are genuinely useful though... I've driven a decent bit, on the stock IS350 brakes, in the blue ridge and smokey mountains... no fade whatsoever thanks to using the paddles.

If I tried to do the whole thing with the car in D I'd have had issues.

But again not because of lack of "force" but lack of heat control.

"more force" from bigger rotors is utterly useless force, especially on street-legal tires.

I highly recommend you reading this- written by a guy who not only designs brake systems for OEMs and high performance aftermarket brake companies, he's literally written books on brake system design and teaches SAE courses on it-

He explains the same things I just did, but in more detail, and with more math, braking down each component of a braking system and explaining why upgrading it will not ever stop you any shorter than the stock brakes do in any normal stop.

Because the brakes don't stop the car, the tires do.

http://www.scirocco.org/faq/brakes/p...n/pfpage1.html

If you're pressed for time here's the payoff of it-
(bold added)

If you don't believe him that a brake upgrade is worthless on a street car how bout some of these folks?