JohnEd

iTrader: (1)

I asked for advice on this a while back and got ZIP for answers. Well it is over now I have the answers. Would have been a whole bunch easier had anybody warned me but I guess I am the FIRST.

So here is the story:

I wanted Bilstiens cause I have had many sets of that brand and all were superb performers. Bils don't come in the SC size. The Bils for the Mk IV TT will fit right on the SC though so all is not lost and there is hope. Problem or advantage is that the TT bils will lower the SC an inch when stock TT springs are used. What luck. I installed the Bils and a set of what I was told were sacked TT springs and all went well but she sat a little low for my tastes and rode really harsh. DRAT!

From what I know of springs, tighter coils and fewer coils mean the load needed to compress an inch goes up rather fast as the loaded inches of compression increases. NOT LINEAR! The third inch may need twice the force to move it an inch as the first inch needed. Race car crap, to be sure. Variable spacing between the coils means that the first inch will be soft and then the spring rate will increase but you can spec a soft first inch. Then there is the width of the spring and that has to do with the strength of the spring. Same diameter wire and more coils will be softer than fewer. Another asperct is that fewer coils will be bent more and should fatigue faster(sack). To get long life and rigidity you just have to make big coils and make them out of the thickness wire that gives to the loading/compression you want. The TEIN H SPORTs have coils as wide as the stock Lex spring and they have variable spacing AND they are made from thicker wire. Metalurgy seems to be at least as sophisticated as the stock Lex spring. Home free, right? Not so fast there Cowboy.

Regardless of what tein might have promissed, those Tein H springs sat very low in the rear and almost at stock ride height in the front. For a SC...not a TT. Does EVERYBODY lie to me with a bold face? BUMMED!

Seems there is a magical device called the "adjustable spring perch kit" and one is made by Bilstien herself. Spendy item so I bought a pair from AI racing products sold by Summit for $40 per corner. Really nice workmanship and zero instructions. They need to be cut and there are two ways to cut them and two ways to install them and 2, or 50%, of those options are wrong. Ya gotta thimk it thru. I bought two kits for the rear and installed them. WALLA! My rears are up to stock like the front and this girl rides like a Lex and corners like a Porche/Civic.

I am certainly well pleased with the final outcome and I think what I have invested is well spent. It has, however, been a long and arduous journey and I am glad it is over. Being forewarned your's should not be loaded with surprises and disappointments.

Don't forget to cut one coil's worth of length off of the end opposite that which impacts the shock on the BUMPER. The shock end has a small plastic ring that reinforces the bumper so it doesn't split when the suspension bottoms...if that were to happen. Hard ride if you don't and the suspension is lowered.

HTH,

John

SC1984

iTrader: (5)

adjustable spring perch kit

I might have to invest in that. I recently purchased the supra bilsteins and eibach pro kit. Its very low, and rides very harsh. heres a pic.

JohnEd

iTrader: (1)

1984,

Well, I got more bad news....for me. Remember that I put on the Tein H sport springs? Then the rear was very low for some reason? I got the kits for the back end and it raised up the rear of the car to my desired height which is a couple inches lower than stock SC. Neat, huh? Wasn't exactly all that simple. The spring perchs that come with the kit are WAAAAY to small to hold the stock spring dimension but they must be used cause they are the part that screws up and down on the threaded sleeve. The Tein is a stock spring...sorta, but it does go on the stock perch. Well, my stock perch would never fit on top of the kit perch as the stock perch is sized to closely fit over the shock body and rest on the "c" ring that goes around the shock. The solution is to take the bottom stock perch into a machine shop and have them bore out the stock to accept the kit perch into it. Then lay the stock perch up on a belt sander and grind the paper thin remaining neck down to a point where there is some material for the perch to sit on. This is way more clear when you have the parts in your hand and can say WTF!, this will never fit in there. The kit is made for the narrow performance springs that hug the shock. You might have those on your car already.

I think you are a prime candidate for this kit set up....but think of this: You could get performance springs and only use the kit with the standard kit adjustable perch. I spent $60 getting 4 perches reamed out by a machinest. If you check around I think you will find that that is a super good rate....for me.

I think the adjustable perches are a must even if your ride height is perfect. They are used to adjust the load on all four corners of the car, regardless of height, so that the pressure down is even for fronts and also between the rears. Racer stuff but why not? $160 for 4 kits!!!!

From the looks of it I think you have the wrong springs. Get them to take them back and exchange for something that is "closer" to what you want to end up with. My concern is that the springs are so compressed that you will get spring bind and break something.

It isn't written down anywhere but you have to shorten you rubber snubber that slides on to the top of the shock. The little 4 inch bumper/snubber that fits up inside the top stock perch. Cut a full ring off of that to allow more travel. If you don't and the thing sits low you will get a bone jarring ride.

Remember I said I bought Tein H Sport springs? They have a great rep, or so I was told. They did seem helpfull on the phone. Still my rear was slammed when I got done. I THOUGHT my front was ok but maybe a little high. I was WRONG and I can't explain how I could have been so stupid. My right front is high....my left front is LOW and needs to be raised. I will have to get kits for the fronts and I had thought I could avoid that. No such luck. I have no explanation for this. BUMMER! I suggest you not purchase the Teins at this time. I will look into all this and get the front springs tested. If they are that bad, the Teiins are a NO NO for any future use by this guy.

Good luck with your car. I am in Orugun so I am 3 hours earlier than you. Call me at 54one 915 08three two if you think I can help.

John

JohnEd

iTrader: (1)

Well, I have more CROW to eat. I was really really tired when I discovered the my front was not even. Couldn't have anything to do with that sloping driveway now could it? What an idiot, I shouldn't try to do anything with only two hours of sleep. I measured the wheels today when I went out to jack the front up. They are 25"L and 25.75" R but it looks way more to the naked eye and i don't have a thing for my eyes to wear.

i am still going to put the kits on the fronts like i did the rears. help! I CAN'T STOP.

thanks all,

john

PecosBill

iTrader: (2)

This is def. the first of Ive heard of anyone having so many probs with a shock/spring swap, esp with such reputable brands. I have TT bilsteins and Tein S-Tech springs and didnt have a single prob. Hopefully youve got everything worked out

JohnEd

iTrader: (1)

PecosBill,

I am flabbergasted as well my friend. Those H Teins are one of the nicest finished products I have ever seen and they came highly recommended by a whole herd of people. My Bils are without peer in reputation for performance and quality. Now that I have a handle on it, I would strongly recommend this combination(with the shock kits) to anyone that wants a decent ride and superb dampening/performance.

The only fly in the ointment was that the rear came out slammed. Installing those shock Kits on the rear was the solution. I have good clearance on all four corners now and the ride I want and the performance I had hoped for. I have it all and I'm love'n it. Would sure have been nice to have known that I needed those kits at the outset so as to avoid doing the job TWICE.... not to mention the disappointment and frustration.

TIP-O-THE-DAY: The kit should have the long end of the threaded collar with most of it travel to the top of the shock for both F&R. The "C" clip that the perch sits on should be in the top grove for the rear and in the bottom groove for the fronts. With this selection you can slam both ends and still be able to set it at stock ride height if you want and anything in between.

Have your Bil's bottom spring perch machined out to accept the kit's bottom adjusting perch. Purchase that spanner wrench for $8 that Summit Racing offers to adj the bottom perch.

And don't forget to put a jack under the bottom ball joint area and raise that corner to load the suspension PRIOR to the final tightening of the upper "A" frame bolt.

Get all the parts together and the machine work done ahead of time and you can do the whole job in a couple hours plus.

I took my favorite ON RAMP at 73. It is posted for 40. Glued to the road. Running Mich AS with a nice ride. Yeah, "I be happy camper".

Thanks for your comments. I trust you are happy with your "S" Teins?

Jiohn

mitsuguy

iTrader: (2)

I can't figure out what is wrong with your setup either John...

I'm sure we conversed about this a dozen times a year or two back, but my car sits beautifully on S-techs and stock supra TT shocks... it is relatively low, but perfect, IMO...

PecosBill

iTrader: (2)

I am VERY happy with my S-techs. I still have stock 16" rims but it def. closes the stock 4x4 gap I had.

IOWNALEXUS

iTrader: (14)

This is the reason i went with coilovers, i like being able to set the ride height exactly where i want it.

JohnEd

iTrader: (1)

Cody,

I don't understand it either. I thought I had a handle on the entire project. WRONG! You have been a wealth of help over the few years I have had my Lex and I very much appreciate it. After I installed the BB and had the rims hit I was bummed. They sat for a year till I felt the urge again. Yeah, we talked it thru and I think I did mostly what we discussed. I even tried stock TT springs. Mine was a tad lower than yours but rode like a truck so I opted for the H Teins. I don't know what is going on with this stuff. I have heard from a lot of people that have plowed this earth and had none of the problems I have had.

You SC looks even better than the last time I saw her. You were stoked on that color a year ago and I sue still am. You did the right thing there Bro.

Well, I am finally happy! We will let it alone for awhile. Wifey is taking her over to the coast for a few days. I get to stay home with the two dogs and the cat.

Good to hear from you.

John

TheMole

iTrader: (13)

First time reading this thread and it is pretty interesting. I previously had the Bilstein/Tein H-tech combo about 2 years ago, but ditched it because of the rough ride, poor handling, and stock looking height. At first I thought the rough ride was due to the springs being linear instead of progressive. After another suspension setup, I realized that my front lca bushings were gone so that could have attributed to the rough ride/poor handling. Those spring perch kits probably would have been a better idea for me back then instead of completely changing suspension setups.

Here are some pics of how the ride height looked with the Bilstein and Tein H-tech setup. I brightened them up a bit to show the fender gaps. Did your setup look like this?

Front


Rear


Front/Rear

JohnEd

iTrader: (1)

The Mole,

Now that is what I am talking about. My rear tire(stock) was even with the top of the fender. Maybe an inch or so lower than yours but definetely lower.

My fronts are also lower than yours were by about the same amt.

I have raised the rears with the kits and they are now a little higher than yours were. I will do the kits for the fronts in the near future. I expect it will come out like I had originally wanted: stock minus 2 inches front and rear.

The Teins I have, H series, are not a linear spring. It is wound non linear with close spaced coils and the rest further spaced. The close spaced ones should compress with min bump load and the then the rest of the loading should be linear. It is a street tech design.

I softened the ride up a lot by cutting an inch off of my bump stops. I think when it was sitting low my rubber snubbers were heavily involved in the bumps and they give very little.

Thanks for your comments...they helped,

John

TheMole

iTrader: (13)

Hey John,

I was also curious as to whether they were linear or progressive so I e-mailed Tein USA a couple of years ago with the following message:

"Hello just had a few questions concerning your H-Tech
line of springs. These questions pertain to part
#SKL18-BUB00 which is for 93-98 Toyota Supra.
1. Do these springs have a progressive spring rate?
2. If yes to above what are the specs of the spring rates?
Thanks!"



They responded with:


"To whom it may concern,

Thank you for your interest in TEIN High Performance suspension products.

The springs are actually linear. Although, if you look at the springs, they
may appear to be progressive, but once the springs are installed and the
vehicle is on the ground(1G), the closely coiled portion of the springs will
be compressed, leaving the spring rate at our published rates.

One of the reasons for the design is so that the springs maintain positive
tension in the assembly, so that at full droop, or where the wheels are off
the ground, the springs do not come loose, which may be the case with cut
springs or poorly engineered lowering springs.

If you have any further questions, please let us know.

Best regards,
Sales

Staff @ TEIN USA INC.
9798 Firestone Blvd.
Downey, CA 90241
Phone: (562)861-9161
Fax: (562)861-9171
www.tein.com"

Hope this clears some things up.

-Mo

JohnEd

iTrader: (1)

Mole,

That is EXCELLENT! Like Mark Twain said "It ain't the things that you don't know that will get ya, it's the things that you are sure of that just ain't so". Now thanks to you, I have one fewer of those. Who knows how many others lurk in there? Thank you, Sir!

It is of some small comfort that they said that their springs "appear" to be progressive. They did to me and now I know why. Toyota solved the problem differently as far as dealing with full droop: They made a linear spring that is of thinner wire and very long in comparison. No wonder they sag....these Teins should last forever.

One thing is for sure: They are a GREAT looking product. They should be wiped down daily and shown with pride.

John