currie0522

Does anyone know what is different between the 3.5L in the ES-350 and that in the new GS-350? The ES-350L is rated at 272 hp and the GS-350 at 303 hp. Is it the same engine?

Cali_Girl

I'm not the best person to answer your question since I'm pretty much car challenged. They are not the same from reading these forums. GS350 is sports sedan and rides like a sport car....like the IS350 with 306 hp. ES350 rides more smoothly....at least from my experience. Also, GS350 is rear wheel drive whereas ES350 is front wheel drive, if that matters I think I also read somewhere that it has to do with direct injection.

onsknht

They are essentially the same engines... However, the ES like the Camry is fitted with the 2GR-FE whereas the GS is fitted with a 2GR-F(R? or ER?).

At any rate, there's more HP because of engine palcement (for RWD), specifically exhaust and then there's also a higher compression ratio...10.8:1 for the 272 and 11.8:1 for the 303... There's probably a host of other variances that also contribute. Could a guy get 303 out of a 2GR-FE? I bet, that and beyond, but at the sacrafice of driveability IMO.

BTW - you'll note two HP ratings for the 2GR-FE at 268 and 272... They are in fact the same engines. I've been dealing with octane switches for years in 2-stroke applications, the Camry and the ES both can sense and adjust automatically to fuel/octane quality... The difference in HP rating is pure marketing especially considering the following disclosure present on Lexus.com and not Toyota.com "Ratings achieved using the required premium unleaded gasoline with an octane rating of 91 or higher. If premium fuel is not used, performance will decrease." So, to get 272 out of the Lexus fitted 2GR-FE, you need to use premium fuel.

Pheonix

I wrote what I thought about it afew weeks back.
onsknht no engine in the world can detect fuel octane. They pull timing based off already present detonation & cycle it back in until it hits the timing it wants to run, or knock is again present.
In the Camry's case, they simply tested it at lower octane.

There would be almost no sacrafice in driveability by adding power until you start changing the porting in the heads & cam profiles. Nothing else N/A will radically change the basic power curves of the engine.

2thfixr

I thought the ES350 was Prem Unleaded only. Does this mean that the Camry can use regular unleaded despite having the same engine? Therefore, it's ok to use regular unleaded if I don't mind a 4 hp loss?

onsknht

Yup, same discussions going on between FJ, 4-Runner and Tacoma owners.

A friend asked me about the FJ he was looking at, he said the fuel cap even reads "Premium Only," and he was quite disturbed because he wants the truck but not a premium only fuel burden... Everywhere I've trolled thus far indicates this is nothing more than a Marketing ploy and real interesting the numbers are always right about the next level. ie 268 vs. 272 - - In other words $1.99 is still Two Bucks.

onsknht

I agree, in my terms of "engine" however, I meant the whole system regardless of how the task is actually achieved... A change in timing you would agree will equate to more HP and the control system will look to maximize its efficiency by varying timing?

Again I agree on drivability, but was more meant a comment on daily use... There's a point where more power becomes inefficient for the car's primary task, particularly speaking droning on in bumper to bumper traffic.

toneman

Is it possible that perhaps the engine computer on the ES 350 has separate timing tables depending on how much knock/detonation it is detecting from the engine...and/or perhaps even then, the tables themselves might be more on the "conservative" side (e.g., timing retarded more than really needed)? I ask because on my GMC Yukon Denali XL, it normally takes regular unleaded; however, it is possible to have the PCM reprogrammed to include a timing table that can take full advantage of premium unleaded. I have had this mod done on my SUV and I can say that the difference in performance is almost night-and-day, as far as non-hardware engine mods go--matter of fact, a PCM reprogram offers a more noticeable improvement in performance than adding either a CAI or cat-back exhaust can offer by itself. Yes, there are other things that can be tweaked in the PCM to help improve performance, but modifying the timing tables to take advantage of whatever octane fuel is being burned is the main thing.

dreyfus

I ran premium unleaded in my ES350 for the first several two thousand miles and have been running 87 octane for the last three thousand plus miles. I've discerned no difference whatsoever in performance, engine noise, or gas mileage.

currie0522

The question of the firmware programmed into the PCM is a very good question. Does the Lexus ES-350 have the same firmware programmed as does the Camry? Do the programming computer report the firmware version?

Does the Camry also have the 6 speed transmission? If not, I suspect that there are other differences in the firmware.

Interestingly, my Honda Goldwing's ECM was recalled to change the timing tables when the engine was in first and second gear for extended periods to minimize an overheating problem . They also inspected the cooling chambers in the heads to make sure there wasn't residue from the casting still present. I can't tell any difference in performance or fuel economy. With the Goldwing, and I'm sure the Lexus engines, the primary feedback to control engine combustion is the O2 sensor. Throttle position and engine speed also feed into the computer to determine spark advance.

If the compression ratio is higher on the GS-350 engine, that says that the combustion chamber is slightly smaller, which says the heads are different so the engine has a different part number. Is the bottom end of the engine the same as well as the camshafts and valves?

Tammy

This might be helpful ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_GR_engine
http://www.answers.com/topic/toyota-gr-engine

twister

You can also add to this 3.5L equation a current Rx350. I'm driving it as a loaner today while my dealer going to replace my front curbed wheel with a spare one. What a huge difference!!! The loaner Rx is in a good condition with low miles so I don't expect too much wear/tear. But, the engine is so much louder and acceleration is sooo slooow. Of course, its tuned as SUV, not our soft ES cruiser. I'm also surprised how rough is the drive in comparion to our '05 Highlander, actually very surprised how you feel every single bump and how much wind noise you hear (the same as in Highlander). Really miss my ES350 now, can't wait to get it back after work!!!

Nextourer

They must've changed the suspension settings on the RX for 2007. I rode the 2006 RXh and I know that it's sprung more stiffly than the 2006 RX330 (which I tested at the BMW xDrive event). The RXh was not softly sprung but it wasn't harsh either. The RX330 I tested at the BMW event was softly sprung and body roll through the slalom was quite evident (I managed to lock the front right tyre for a split second as the awd system tries to sort things out).

2thfixr

I would think that the RX hybrid would have different spring rates due to the added weight of the hybrid drive system and batteries.