Davidtttt

Michelin Pilot Sports seem to be the tire of choice to replace run flats but what about other brands. There are Continental ContiExtremeContact, Pirelli P7000 SuperSport, Yokohama AVS dB S2 and others.

Any opinions from my learned friends?

beachdrive

I am still doing research on the tire issue. My first goal was to understand the economics prior to tackling the performance, wear, and noise issues. My latest quotes are as follow;

1. Purchase a space saver spare, kit, and install from Lexus for $730 (3/17/03 quote) plus $1116 for 4 Michellin Pilot Sport A/S tires - wear rating of 400 (plus something for mounting balancing and installation) = $1846 plus tire labor for this alternative.

2. Four - Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D (Run Flats) for $1516 plus labor. Can not get a committment as to the DOT Tread Wear number (I have seen 180, 300, and 380 listed). The dealer's main office simply replied (via E-Mail) that the Eagle F1 GS would get better tire wear than the GS-D EMT and that my best bet for better information would be "your club" as the tire dealers still have limited feedback. I can appreciate that response given how new our cars are.

Although this does not help with performance, wear, and noise information at least it helps with the dollar side of the equation. Right now it looks like the Eagle F1 run flats would come out ahead $1516 vs $1846 until the very first time you got a flat at which time it would have been more cost effective to get the Michellin non-run flats. In addition, with the run flats, after replacing the one bad tire you now have three tires with wear and one with none. For what it is worth, when I visited the the local store the manager told me that the previous Eagles were noisy but that the newer versions were better. Since the Eagle line is so broad, this probably does not help much even if fully correct.

All this is is still leading me towards the Michellins since I have had such good luck (wear, balance, and wet weather handling) with their tires on family cars I have owned. I am willing to give up the trunk space for the spare as I worry a lot and also have incredibly bad luck of periodically picking up nails (never a blow out, but many slow leaks leading to repairs).

Davidtttt

You seem to put a lot of though in to this subject but I was surprised at the price quoted to you for a spear kit. My dealer told me that it would run about $350.00.

Since my SC430 is my toy for use in the area and short weekend trips, the loss of the trunk space to a spare is not a problem to me. My wife and I just throw a two role bags in the back seat.

I want to change out the wheels and tires in the next couple of months. The trick is the keep the pressure sensors. HRE make a very nice full-face wheel that works but at a very high price ($900.00 + a wheel).

Thanks for your response. I am somewhat surprised by the lack of response. I though there would be more opinions out here

Davidtttt

Make that spare kit. spear kits are way to expensive.

beachdrive

I agree that the price I was quoted for the spare kit was too high. I realized quickly that the people I spoke to that day on the phone needed my personal input. The service advisor assured me that the spare tire I would get was a full sized tire and was shocked when I told her that if that was true I would be able to rotate through 5 tires in my tire rotation. She also gave me other conflicting (wrong) info. She switched me into parts where the parts person told me initially that the spare tire kit for $730 was only the securing parts and covering and did not include the tire. He was overheard by another person in the department who told him it did indeed include the tire.

Since I am pretty handy mechanically, I will also investigate a do-it-yourself approach and see what would be involved in putting together my own spare kit (its a 17" space saver from best I could tell).

When it comes time to activate my plan, I will go to the dealer in person and work through the people there that I have a good relationship with.

I, like you, use my car for weekend (and weekday) getaways. For me it would not be a getaway if I had to lug stuff around with me (been there-done that). Two small soft-side bags in the back seat will do the trick. As for golf clubs – I do have more than one car. Also, I have figured that on the way to the mountains for a longer weekend, I would probably travel to the destination with the top up and have a bunch of space in the trunk. Once I threw whatever was in the trunk into the Inn’s rooms, I would then have an empty trunk and would be top down for the weekend. This solution would work for any time I just had to have more “stuff”.

I have closely reviewed every message (back to the beginning) on both the US site and the UK sites looking for more input on the tire issue. I can only think it is because the cars are so new that there is little info. I have over 7,000 miles and from the looks of the wear (very uniform and slight), I should get at least another 10,000 miles and perhaps more. I am not an aggressive driver. That leaves me another 10 months before I need to make my final tire decision.

bengreen

Check out my response to Thread "RunFlat Goes Flat" page 2.(3/12/03)... I had the whole conversion, ...Michelin Pilot A/S, COMPLETE spare tire (donut) assembly, incl. tire cover/trunk floor covering, reinstall sensors..........everything, including tax....Under $1650....you can "negotiate" with Lexus...as I did...they have wiggle room in their pricing (except for the tires...$263 each).....GO FOR IT......the riding/handling improvements are dramatic....plus....no more strange squeaks..and other noises. I've had them on now for 400 miles...SHOULD HAVE DONE IT 21,000 MILES AGO......GET RID OF THOSE EVIL R/Fs.....and REALLY start enjoying your SC430. I'd be happy to respond to questions....these info exchanges are what make this a neat Forum.

Larry

I just changed the stocks to Mille Miglia Evo5' with MP Sports for a grand total of $2,029. Delivered to my door mounted and balanced from Tire Rack. Mine is a weekend car complete with 2 cans of "Flat-Fix" and a cell phone to call roadside assistance. $900. a wheel ? That's an awful lot to spend.

beachdrive

Thanks for all the input guys.

This morning I went down to my local Goodyear dealer. I showed him the response from his corporate HQ on the Eagle F1 GS-D EMT tires with pricing and comments. He took that info and entered it into his computer and it came back with "discontinued". None anywhere in any of their stores or warehouses. He gave me the catalogue number as 406073171 and said it is possible that some dealer somewhere in America has the tire. He has committed do doing more research for me and will call back, but now I am not sure it will be needed. He also said the tread pattern would be the v shaped uni-directional one and not the one that Goodyear shows on the net. I really only wanted to get some additional info on the tire so I did not get blindsided by superb ratings and comments right after I buy my non-run flats.

The fact that no one knows anything about run flats (Lexus Dealer, Goodyear dealer, etc), the issue of fixing a flat, together with the good comments here about non-run flats have cemented my decision. I
probably will not wait for these Bridgestone run flats to wear out first.

As an engineer (although not an automotive engineer), I can think of no valid reason a nail hole can not be patched in the running surface of a run flat. The question might actually be somewhat mute in that if the people you go to to patch it refuse to do so, it kind of strands you right or wrong. I do know that my buddy who has a BMW 540 with run flats could not get his patched. He was told it was do to the liability on patching a Z rated tire which will potentialy be run at ultimate speeds. Sounds like another story, but I do not need to argue with tire patchers when I am stranded somewhere, just want to patch and go.

MedDawg

Larry, didn't I read in another post that your Pilots and Miglia rims came from tirerack.com with the pressure sensors installed? Also, did all you have to do is jack up the car, take the stock wheels off and put on the new rims/tires? I'm thinking of doing the same thing as you, and not have to do it through my Lexus dealer (100 miles away).

Davidtttt

Yes Larry, over $900 a wheel and that does not include the tires. It will run me $4000 to $5000 to get the wheels, pressure sensors and tires. HRE make a great look full-face wheel (see below) that I think will look great on the SC430 and the HRE 540 uses the stock sensors.

beachdrive

Just got this response from Goodyear Mid Atlantic concerning the availability of Goodyear Eagle F1 for the Lexus SC430. Although it looks like the Michelin PS AS is the leading contender, I thought I would provide Goodyears's input on their tires. Sorry if the info below sounds like a commercial, but it has been tough finding any information at all about any tire and this information is extensive. I do appreciate Goodyear following up to my request.


FROM GOODYEAR
The Goodyear branded tire, the Eagle F1, is no longer original equipment on
this car, nor is it available in this size. It has been replaced by the
Dunlop SP5000 DSST Ultra High Performance All Season Radial. (Dunlop is
one of the brands in the Goodyear portfolio.) This tire is now OE the
Lexus SC430. The DSST stands for Dunlop Self Supporting Technology. We
used much of the run flat technology pioneered in the Eagle product line
and shared it with some of the tires we make in the Dunlop brand.

This is a very new tire, most retailers do not have them in stock because
much of the production on this tire is being absorbed by the original
equipment manufacturers. A few tires each day are being diverted to the
after market for replacement sales. Most dealers are taking orders for
these tires and then are placing orders with the factory since requests are
filling first come, first served. Check out the reviews on this tire and
I'm sure you will be impressed.

Let me know if I can be of any further assistance.
DUN SP5000 DSST
Ultra-High Performance All-Season Radial

Features
Benefits

° Innovative, asymmetrical tread design (55 series and lower
sizes) ° Optimum balance of grip and performance
° Large, stable, interconnected tread blocks
° Exceptional dry cornering grip and stability
° Independent inner tread blocks with open shoulder grooves
° Exceptional dry cornering grip and stability
° Full-width, twin cut steel belts
° Dependable ride uniformity and excellent contact patch shape
° Exclusive, high performance All-Season tread compound
° Optimized grip, control, energy absorption and treadwear
° Full-face, cross-cut siping
° Multiple biting edges for greater wet grip and All-Season traction
° Four deep, wide circumferential tread grooves combine with
° Excellent water dispersion and improved wet grip
sweeping intermediate tread grooves
° Max Flange Shield (available in select sizes)
° Protects expensive alloy wheels from curb scuffing damage
° Sophisticated serrated black sidewall design
° Enhanced vehicle appearance

beachdrive

First a disclaimer. I am a retired Paper Company manager and have never owned a set of Goodyear tires that I can recall. I am just attempting to obtain meaningful information about the performance (handling, wear, noise) of tires I am considering for my SC430. The information below is from a Goodyear regional manager and one of their technical writers for the Internet and Print Media. It is very long for a Club Posting, but since there seems to be others interested in more tire performance info, I have pasted it all here. I would like to see this type info on all the competing tire brands. I have not pursued it from any other company yet.

If anyone things this type info is too commercial for the site, please let me know and I will stop posting it.

Bob



FROM THE GOODYEAR FOLKS:

Another tire to consider if you are not looking for run-flat technology is
the new Eagle F1 (internally we call it the Eagle F1 GS D3 to differentiate
it from the other Eagle F1s, but that name is too long for marketing
purposes.) It combines many of the key lessons learned through our racing
division and has created a unique blend of performance characteristics with
a striking appearance. I'll let the following article written by a
journalist at the tire's introduction last fall, explain the tire.

Also check out EVO magazine, a European automotive journal. It compares
this tire to similarly positioned Michelins, Bridgestones, Yokohamas, etc.
It scores top marks.

Goodyear has just scored a virtual "one-two punch" in the
ultra-performance tire market.

A couple of months ago, it introduced the Eagle F1 Supercar (OE tire on
01-03 Z06es) in replacement sizes to fit many 88-96 C4s and the non-Z06,
C5s. I posted a review of that product on these lists. if you missed
it, a more lengthy version is at
http://www.idavette.net/hib/gyst/index.htm

Last Monday, Goodyear took its second swipe at the ultra-performance tire
market and introduced the "Eagle F1 GS-D3" (or just the "F1" as Goodyear
abbreviates it) to the North American market. It will replace the
ancient GS-C and the non-run-flat version of the F1 GS for all C4 and C5
sizes, except 255/50ZR16 (84-87 and some 88 C4s) and the 01-03 Z06 sizes.

This new tire is a quantum leap past the old GS-C and an improvement over
the F1 GS in dry traction, noise, wear and ride. By virtue of a
completely different tread design, the tire is a heck of a lot better in
the wet than either of those older products.

Where does the F1 GS-D3 sit in relation to the F1 Supercar? Well, the
Supercar is still Goodyear's most aggressive, dry traction,
ultra-performance tire and remains one of the top choices if you want a
DOT-legal tire for primarily hard-core performance driving on the street
and occasional trips to the track.

The F1 fits in Goodyear's ultra-performance line just small step below
the Supercar. It doesn't have quite the limited tread depth and
lunatic-fringe dry traction, but it's better in the wet and is quieter.
My guess is the F1 might also be just a bit better in tread life, too.

What about the few C4 and C5 sizes not covered by the new F1 GS-D3? The
existing F1 GS will continue to be available in the early C4 sizes and
the F1 Supercar will continue to be available in Z06 sizes.

Goodyear Marketing Manager for Auto Tires, Bob Toth, told me earlier this
week that all 39 sizes in the F1 line should be in the retail pipeline by
late October. The Corvette sizes of this tire are made, alongside the F1
Supercar, at Goodyear's plant in Lawton, Oklahoma.

Earlier this week, I spent a day testing this new tire at Goodyear's
Proving Ground in San Angelo, Texas. The facility's vehicle dynamics
area, a 540,000 sq/ft. asphalt pad (for comparison a football field is
only 90,000 sq/ft.) with a 1-deg. slope and a water distribution system
that spreads a layer of water, .050-.060-in. thick over the entire
facility, was the site of some pretty revealing wet handling tests I ran.
Goodyear had turned on the water and set up braking and a low-speed
autocross test courses. My test cars were three C5 Convertibles with
automatics and base suspensions. One had a set of Michelin Pilot Sports.
A second had a set of Bridgestone Potenza S-03 Pole Positions and the
third car had F1 GS-D3s. Tire sizes on all cars were stock. Tire
pressures were 30 psi cold.

The braking test procedure was: accelerate to 55 mph then, upon passing a
set of start cones, apply full-ABS braking. From the start cones, there
were measurement signs every ten feet. The Pilot and the Potenza brought
the car to a stop in 87-90 feet. The new Goodyear's performance in the
same test was 83-85 feet for an approximate, 5% improvement.

The autocross was not timed and was used as a subjective evaluation of
the car's limit handling on a wet surface. After driving all three tires,
I felt the Goodyear had a slightly higher breakaway limit in the wet
than both the Pilot Sport and the S-03 Pole Position. Also, I noted that,
compared to the Goodyear and the Michelin, once the Bridgestone began to
slip, it broke-away far more abruptly. With the other two, once I felt
initial breakaway, things happened just a tiny bit slower. I observed two
different drivers spin the Bridgestone-shod car in the same spot on the
course. It was a place where an unprepared driver was liable to lift
abruptly in a turn. Once the Bridgestone hits its limit in the wet, it
breaks-loose instantly. Not a good thing.

Later, Goodyear supplied objective, traction coefficient vs. percentage
of slip data for all three tires. It was taken at 60 mph in the wet.
While at that higher speed, each tires' hydroplane characteristics may
have had a slightly greater effect, the data seemed to confirm what I'd
felt in the 40-50-mph slalom. This data showed that the new Goodyear is
better than the Michelin and slightly better than the Bridgestone until
the slip angle reaches 30-deg. Past that (angles you'd almost never see
in practical use in the wet unless you were loosing or had lost control
of the vehicle) the Bridgestone and the Goodyear are about the same with
both having an edge over the Michelin. This testing convinced me that the
best choice in an ultra-performance tire for a Corvette (or any
performance car, for that matter) that might get driven in the rain is a
Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3.

I asked Goodyear Engineer, Melissa Montisano, what features of this new
tire would cause it to better both those other, admittedly good tire
brands, in the testing I did. She told me that in those two tests, 55mph
braking and low-speed autocross, on surfaces wetted to a depth of
.050-.060-in., the tires' hydroplaning characteristics are not the most
critical factor. What makes the F1 stick better in the wet at those
speeds is its tread design, its tread compound and the size of its
footprint.

That afternoon, I moved to the Proving Grounds' 2.5 mile road race course
for a subjective evaluation of the F1 in an at-limit, dry traction
environment. The test car was an Audi A4 sedan with a 220hp V6 and a
six-speed manual trans...not really a car I'd choose to use for a tire
test, but one that is on the "sedate" end of the target market for this
tire. Again, the tire sizes were stock and the tire pressures were 30-psi
cold.

I ended up being quick time of the day amongst the other media present
so, even though I'd never driven that track and never driven an all-wheel
drive car, I knew I'd run the new Goodyears harder than anyone else
present. There was no competing tire products to test so about the only
conclusions I could draw were: 1) the F1 GS-D3 is quite predictable,
certainly more so than an old GS-C and 2) they are a pretty forgiving
tire in that you could take them right up to the limit, then stray back
and forth just across it, and not abruptly end up in the weeds.

It was difficult to gain much more of a subjective impression because an
Audi A4 is not the best platform for testing like this. It felt quite
heavy for its size, has too much body roll and an awful shift linkage.
Additionally, the 30-psi cold figure was probably too low for that car as
the outside fronts showed clear evidence the sidewalls were rolling
under. For a more substantial impression or some kind of comparison, I'll
have to wait until I can get a set of F1s on a car I know well.

The final stop in my day at Goodyear's San Angelo facility was a
late-afternoon visit to the "Glass-Plate" testing facility. You all have
seen images of tires, rolling across wetted-down, glass plates. San
Angelo's Glass Plate facility is where Goodyear does that kind of test
work. It's not often that tire companies invite the press to visit the
venues they use for this kind of testing, much less let them go down,
into the underground lab beneath the plate and watch their engineers at
work, but Goodyear did that for me. The actual plate is about 18-in.
wide, 36-in long and 4.5-in. thick and is covered by an .080-in. of
water. The Glass Plate control system is designed to hold that water
depth accurately as long as the wind is less than 2-mph. If the wind is
more than that, no testing is conducted. After each run across the plate,
automated equipment cleans off the plate and restores the water layer to
the .080-in. depth. The plate itself is scientific-grade glass that is
optically correct. The imaging equipment is all digital and
computer-controlled. Strobes are used to light the tire as it crosses the
plate and the water is dyed green, which shows up best in a color image.
While we were in the "Pit," a Goodyear test driver ran a C5 Coupe fitted
with F1s over the plate a couple of times at 40 mph while I watched the
test images get processed then looked at the results.

Goodyear also supplied data accumulated at this facility for the
Bridgestone Potenza S-03 PP, the Michelin Pilot Sport and the F1 GS-D3.
Typically, this data is taken at 2mph (which establishes a 100% footprint
"baseline"), 40 mph, 60 mph and sometimes higher speeds, depending on the
tire or the testing required. In this case, the data was for 2, 40 and 60
mph. At 2mph, obviously, all three had 100% of the footprint area
retained on a pass through the .080-in water. At 40 mph, They varied from
88% area retention for the Goodyear and the Bridgestone to 91% for the
Michelin. At 60 mph, things changed. The Michelin dropped to 61% of the
area retained. The Bridgestone was at 64% and the Goodyear was at 67%. If
you want to go fast in the wet, the best hydroplaning resistance in the
ultra-performance tire market right now comes with the new F1.

The new Goodyear's better resistance to hydroplaning in the wet comes
from something called "V-TRED" technology. Circumferential,
water-evacuation channels, such as Goodyear uses on the Auquatred 3,
wouldn't work on a tire like the F1 GS-D3 because they'd deal its
dry-traction capability a serious blow. The solution is long, sweeping
grooves that are at an angle, but not as sharp an angle as seen on
previous Goodyear performance tires. What's unique is V-TRED grooves
extend more than three times the length of the tire contact patch. When
the tire is rotating these grooves greatly enhance the flow of water to
the outside of the tire's tread, yet still put lots of rubber on the
road. Because these email lists don't let me send images, I'll refer you
to Goodyear's web site at www.eagleF1.com where there is an outstanding,
graphical display of the V-TRED idea along with a lot of other pretty
cool image stuff. You need the latest Macromedia Flash plug-in for your
browser to view this site.

This tire, in a limited amount of sizes, was introduced over in Europe
back in the spring. American car magazines seldom do tire tests these
days, but tire testing is wildly popular amongst the European automotive
press. In the last six months, the British magazine, "EVO" and the German
publications "Auto Zeitung", "Sport Auto" and "Auto Bild" all ran tire
comparison tests and Auto Bild has run two. Each of these tests included
the F1 GS-D3. In the interest of saving space, I can't list all those
results but suffice to say, the new Goodyear was an outright winner in
some of these tests and placed very well in all of them. My guess is,
further details of these tests can be found on each magazine's web sites
and, perhaps, English versions of the data may be on Goodyear's site.

At this point, I'm a believer.

On my list of tires, the new Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3 has replaced the
Pilot Sport as the best, all-round, ultra-performance, tire. As soon as I
get a set of these new Goodyears on something in my own fleet, I'll have
more to say, probably in the form of reviews on the Corvette Forum and
the Corvette Action Center sites.

MedDawg

Wow, that and the good reviews on tirerack.com might mean I'll go for the Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3's instead of the Pilots!

On tirerack.com, the YR rated F1 Eagles are $163 and the ZR's are $203. Why? Don't YR's have a higher speed rating than the ZR's?

beachdrive

If all things were equal, the Michelins have a wear rating of 400 vs the Goodyears at 280. Not sure exactly how to factor that into the equation yet. Although 280/400 X $256 (for Michelins) would give an equivilent price (wear factored) of $179.20. Since the Y rate Goodyears are only $163, I guess the wear ratings balance out pretty good. On the other hand the Z rated Goodyears cost $202 which is less tire wear for the dollar than the Michelins. I realize that most people who own this car are not going to argue over a few dollars on the tires, but it is just another interesting factor.

I also thought the Y rating was higher and wondered why the price difference at Tire Rack. Thanks for pointing out the reviews at tire rack. I am going to study them all.

1NICESC430

I had that same question about the difference in price of the Goodyear tires. A Tirerack rep told me that part of the tire price is dependent on how many they make, which depends on demand. If more people are buying the YR (note that they are on backorder status at Tirerack while the XR is in stock), then they're making more of them thereby reducing the per-tire cost. I just find it hard to believe they pass this cost savings on!

I'm seriously considering these over the Michelins. My Lexus parts guy is trying to get me an even better deal than Tirerack - we'll see how he does.

Would anyone here who has had a spare kit installed let me know what the dealer charged for it? My dealer has never installed one and they're in the process of determining labor cost on installing one for me. I'd like to compare.