Why do you do these things to your SC?
03-23-15, 01:09 AM
#31
Your math is fine. Where you went off track a bit though was with the higher HP = higher MPH. The potential for higher MPH is true with more power, but in the context of daily driving which was my original point, stopping from a speed of 70MPH is the same whether your HP = 100, 1,000, or 10,000. If your stock brakes can lock up the wheel at that speed then rotor size and amount of pistons in your caliper becomes a moot point. Tires, weight of the car and road condition become the only factors remaining to get you to 0MPH.
By all means though if we're driving on the same highway and you're moving along at 160MPH in a 600HP car, please have bigger than stock brakes.
By all means though if we're driving on the same highway and you're moving along at 160MPH in a 600HP car, please have bigger than stock brakes.
Maybe I was being pessimistic, but I didn't think anyone gave a s***.
Thanks for proving otherwise
I see what you mean now.
Last edited by SEIDO; 03-24-15 at 12:45 AM.
03-23-15, 10:42 AM
#34
Cant believe this went on for this long....I looked at this thread when it first was made......thats like asking why does every Supra need to have a 1000HP.....come on man....
Why do people mod any cars to begin with.....its to personal their ride to the owners tastes and for it to become unique...
I seriously laugh when people bash the SC....what do you expect for a mid 90's Luxury Coupe.......gotta pay to play.....
I purchased my car for $2,500....and have well over $10,000 into it and I am not finished......but I have a passion for my SC
Why do people mod any cars to begin with.....its to personal their ride to the owners tastes and for it to become unique...
I seriously laugh when people bash the SC....what do you expect for a mid 90's Luxury Coupe.......gotta pay to play.....
I purchased my car for $2,500....and have well over $10,000 into it and I am not finished......but I have a passion for my SC
Last edited by CatManD3W; 03-23-15 at 10:47 AM.
03-23-15, 11:59 AM
#35
That being said, my sole point was about it improving panic stops in daily driving scenarios. I, like others, bring up panic stops because frankly that's when your brakes matter the most and if what you have is strong enough to lock up the wheels already then bigger brakes aren't going to slow you down any faster. Better tires and lighter weight will. Maybe the SC300 brakes are so woefully underpowered that the LS swap is worthwhile. You mentioned that it was a consensus feeling that it's a worthwhile upgrade and has noticeable improvements.
Did anyone ever do testing from 60 - 0 to confirm this or is it the same thing as a "butt dyno"? .
Did anyone ever do testing from 60 - 0 to confirm this or is it the same thing as a "butt dyno"? .
Prior to change best stop was 130 +/- 10 feet.
After the change best stop was 110 +/- 10 feet
Basically it was about 2 - 2.5 car lengths difference which imo isn't bad for a basic brake swap.
For me the biggest difference is that the initial bite of the new pads is much stronger and there is much less fade under repeated hard stops.
I have ordered the carbotech xp12's and a new set of r888's.Also trying to track down a 99 tt master cylinder and brake booster to help with peddle pressure. I fully expect a huge difference in stopping ability with these changes due mostly to the new tire compound.
03-23-15, 12:31 PM
#36
That being said, my sole point was about it improving panic stops in daily driving scenarios. I, like others, bring up panic stops because frankly that's when your brakes matter the most and if what you have is strong enough to lock up the wheels already then bigger brakes aren't going to slow you down any faster. Better tires and lighter weight will. Maybe the SC300 brakes are so woefully underpowered that the LS swap is worthwhile. You mentioned that it was a consensus feeling that it's a worthwhile upgrade and has noticeable improvements. Did anyone ever do testing from 60 - 0 to confirm this or is it the same thing as a "butt dyno"?
2) Someone on Lextreme did a fairly controlled study and found that the LS brakes stopped quite a bit shorter from 60-0 mph. I think he found it to be 8m (24'). I probably have the link saved somewhere... That's in pretty close agreement with scblackout's numbers.
03-23-15, 02:58 PM
#37
Some good points and after re-reading my original post sorry if it came off as trying to dissuade people from performing the upgrade.
...
That being said, my sole point was about it improving panic stops in daily driving scenarios. I, like others, bring up panic stops because frankly that's when your brakes matter the most and if what you have is strong enough to lock up the wheels already then bigger brakes aren't going to slow you down any faster. Better tires and lighter weight will. Maybe the SC300 brakes are so woefully underpowered that the LS swap is worthwhile. You mentioned that it was a consensus feeling that it's a worthwhile upgrade and has noticeable improvements. Did anyone ever do testing from 60 - 0 to confirm this or is it the same thing as a "butt dyno"?
...
That being said, my sole point was about it improving panic stops in daily driving scenarios. I, like others, bring up panic stops because frankly that's when your brakes matter the most and if what you have is strong enough to lock up the wheels already then bigger brakes aren't going to slow you down any faster. Better tires and lighter weight will. Maybe the SC300 brakes are so woefully underpowered that the LS swap is worthwhile. You mentioned that it was a consensus feeling that it's a worthwhile upgrade and has noticeable improvements. Did anyone ever do testing from 60 - 0 to confirm this or is it the same thing as a "butt dyno"?
It's just that the subject has been covered so many times before and, no, an official test has never been done by CL members (to my knowledge) but you could take many 1993 era braking tests performed by several large auto magazines of the MKIV Supra Twin Turbo as indicative of what the system is capable of over the brakes on non-turbo MKIV's and SC300's. Since both cars use the same chassis with few differences and these systems are completely interchangeable I think any test we might commission here would be pretty close to the braking numbers from a factory TT.
Now the ABS modules are slightly different in that MKIV TT's have an extra channel and the TT ABS ECU is calibrated not only for that car's weight but also for sportier driving. That does make some difference I am sure, however the caliper change alone brings most of the benefits even combined with the SC's excellent ABS system.
I find it hard to believe that engineers at Toyota/Lexus would put a car on the road with a brake system incapable of stopping the wheels in an emergency and that is susceptible to brake fade under normal driving conditions. Also, if you're driving aggressively enough in your day-to-day life that brake fade on a well maintained stock brake system comes into play then you're probably in a pretty small minority.
And yes, you can begin to fade the stock brakes if you start driving spiritedly or if you wait for the underpowered engine to get up to speed in traffic and suddenly find yourself needing to use the brakes when someone cuts in front of you. Repeat this many, many times in the course of one driving excursion in L.A. traffic and you have a recipe for potential disaster. More safety is always better than just enough in my personal opinion.
Also, the stock brakes tend to reach full ABS lockup *much* faster than with the LS400 brakes which rarely get to that point unless you're in a very, very dangerous situation. Of course you already had excellent tires on the car in both situations... right?
If you bought one of these SC's expecting to have a practical and fun sporty car then you'll definitely feel the factory brakes were an afterthought or possibly a punishment from Lexus for not buying a higher trim level SC.... which didn't exist in their factory lineup in the first place.
If you drive in the most sedate manner possible and leave a ludicrous number of car lengths ahead of you (meaning everyone will pass and cut in front of you) then sure, the stock brakes are more than adequate.
But most people buying these cars used now aren't the same buyers Lexus originally sold the cars to. Most owners of SC's today are interested in, among other things, a fun and sporty driving experience with the rock solid reliability the cars are known for. Or the solid poor-man's Supra TT platform the cars make the basis for. Given those expectations, the factory brakes aren't up to the standard of what people expect from the vehicle. The fact that this is a bolt-in upgrade with almost no modification required is a major plus in many people's eyes.
I know you mentioned your own personal experience with a panic stop and why you upgraded. Cool, I get it. It's just generally been my experience that the majority of panic stops happen when people are driving to fast, or are to close to people in front of them, or are just not paying attention to the road. I've been guilty as Hell of these at various times in my life. I'm not saying this is what your particular situation was, just a general observation of mine from living in big cities in multiple countries. The best safety device in a car is an aware driver.
And there is another reason why I think this upgrade is worthwhile: in 1993 when these cars were produced only the most powerful cars had powerful performance braking systems. People weren't as aggressive or distracted as they seem to be in dense population areas. These days even if you aren't driving too aggressively I feel it pays to have a superior braking system... *especially* in a sports GT or sports car. There are so many times when I've been driving normally and I had to panic stop or use both good acceleration AND braking to get myself out of some moron's bad driving choice in a split second.
Also, the vehicle these upgrade brakes come from, the 95-2000 LS400 sedan, weighs tremendously more than any SC and yet it still exhibits strong and confident braking performance. No, I don't have a test to prove it but we have one of those models in my family which I have driven for years. Clearly the LS400 is not a racecar but I have rarely felt so confident I could stop a heavy full size vehicle multiple times over and over in a short period than in that big Lexus.
But they are extremely heavy sedans.
What model do you own, btw?
Last edited by KahnBB6; 03-23-15 at 03:08 PM.
03-23-15, 05:11 PM
#38
@scblackout & t2d2 - If you guys are correct that's some **** poor engineering from Toyota/Lexus and the first time I've run across results that drastic on a stock car. I'll eat crow on this one and keep it in mind as a future example.
@KahnBB6 - I just purchased a super clean 1-owner fully documented 1992 SC300 that is completely stock except for the wheels. I'm actually surprised it took me so long to pick one up but I've just always had other projects going on and/or no time for one. I've liked these cars since the first time I saw a Youtube video of Clint Pohler's Turbo SC300 walking street bikes back in the early 2000s. The plan is to leave it stock-ish for now and DD it when I get home from Taiwan in September. But if the motor or tranny ever goes I'm dropping in a turbo 1JZ or 2JZ setup. Maybe an LSx swap, but I suspect I'd catch more crap for that than my BBK diatribe!
@KahnBB6 - I just purchased a super clean 1-owner fully documented 1992 SC300 that is completely stock except for the wheels. I'm actually surprised it took me so long to pick one up but I've just always had other projects going on and/or no time for one. I've liked these cars since the first time I saw a Youtube video of Clint Pohler's Turbo SC300 walking street bikes back in the early 2000s. The plan is to leave it stock-ish for now and DD it when I get home from Taiwan in September. But if the motor or tranny ever goes I'm dropping in a turbo 1JZ or 2JZ setup. Maybe an LSx swap, but I suspect I'd catch more crap for that than my BBK diatribe!
03-23-15, 06:03 PM
#39
So the brakes aren't for you because you might have to buy... tires?
You can sell your current set of rims and tires to offset the costs.
But you're saying the cheapest BBK setup for our car is a bad investment because a couple hundred for larger rims and possibly tires is too much for you? It's not even that you have to do the brakes when you have brand new pads and rotors on your own car. Pads and rotors cost money, so when they wear down and it's time to do them, maybe upgrade to the LS brakes instead. At that point you're maybe only blowing an extra $40 since you're replacing something thats worn anyways, and receiving sizable value for the additional $40 you spend. Tires are also a wear item, maybe upgrade to ls400 rims, when you're own tires are bad anyways, then it's money you'd have to spend in the first place and the additional $$ spent will provide added value, and who knows, now it's a 50/50 shot that the rims you get won't need new tires, and it's possible you could even save money doing that rather than buying 4 new tires.
Maybe you should just rephrase it to "I can't afford (or do not wish to spend my money) on the LS brakes, but I understand why others would consider it."
But that's ignoring the point, this doesn't have to be an expensive upgrade if you think about it for a few minutes and plan it out. And if you are rocking wider than stock tires this upgrade can provide an increase in stopping distance, and decrease brake fade.
Of course this goes back to OP's question, why do it at all? We can point to a few pieces of value here and there, but the argument always can and will hearken back to "but isn't it good enough already."
And honestly, yes. It is good enough already, but I think that the human mind is always striving for more. It's our capacity to do better and get the most for our money that drives us to build, but also fills us with regret and shame when we don't. Because we recognize what could be. If we weren't aware of the possibilities then good enough would be fine with me, and every other person on this forum. But when you think about paying $300 or more to have the front rotors and pads replaced with the same parts, and then you see the ls400 rotors and pads for sale on the forum for $250-$300 shipped it makes me feel stupid. I don't want to feel like I'm not getting the maximum amount of value from my $$. I'd feel like I'm betraying my love for this car if I did any less than use my $$ to its maximum leverage.
Simply knowing better almost forces my hand. My control arms were shot, why not save over $1,000 and get Supra LCA's for a more connected driving feeling? Stock struts and spring can run nearly $1,000 or more for parts alone, why not buy the BC racing coils for $700 off the forum? My climate control was burned out and nearly unusable at night, why not spend $265 for a used touchscreen digital unit off the forum? Why risk LCD screen replacement, or spend the outrageous amount for an OEM unit?
Sure some of my mods don't serve any purpose, the rims are from the PO, and some of the ground effects are from the PO, although I've replaced most and had the fiberglass repaired and repainted twice so far. You could probably argue that the money spent on my HID retrofit didn't provide that much value but I wanted to expand my knowledge base and it was worth it to me.
I think though the main answer for why we do these things, is because we know better.
You can sell your current set of rims and tires to offset the costs.
But you're saying the cheapest BBK setup for our car is a bad investment because a couple hundred for larger rims and possibly tires is too much for you? It's not even that you have to do the brakes when you have brand new pads and rotors on your own car. Pads and rotors cost money, so when they wear down and it's time to do them, maybe upgrade to the LS brakes instead. At that point you're maybe only blowing an extra $40 since you're replacing something thats worn anyways, and receiving sizable value for the additional $40 you spend. Tires are also a wear item, maybe upgrade to ls400 rims, when you're own tires are bad anyways, then it's money you'd have to spend in the first place and the additional $$ spent will provide added value, and who knows, now it's a 50/50 shot that the rims you get won't need new tires, and it's possible you could even save money doing that rather than buying 4 new tires.
Maybe you should just rephrase it to "I can't afford (or do not wish to spend my money) on the LS brakes, but I understand why others would consider it."
But that's ignoring the point, this doesn't have to be an expensive upgrade if you think about it for a few minutes and plan it out. And if you are rocking wider than stock tires this upgrade can provide an increase in stopping distance, and decrease brake fade.
Of course this goes back to OP's question, why do it at all? We can point to a few pieces of value here and there, but the argument always can and will hearken back to "but isn't it good enough already."
And honestly, yes. It is good enough already, but I think that the human mind is always striving for more. It's our capacity to do better and get the most for our money that drives us to build, but also fills us with regret and shame when we don't. Because we recognize what could be. If we weren't aware of the possibilities then good enough would be fine with me, and every other person on this forum. But when you think about paying $300 or more to have the front rotors and pads replaced with the same parts, and then you see the ls400 rotors and pads for sale on the forum for $250-$300 shipped it makes me feel stupid. I don't want to feel like I'm not getting the maximum amount of value from my $$. I'd feel like I'm betraying my love for this car if I did any less than use my $$ to its maximum leverage.
Simply knowing better almost forces my hand. My control arms were shot, why not save over $1,000 and get Supra LCA's for a more connected driving feeling? Stock struts and spring can run nearly $1,000 or more for parts alone, why not buy the BC racing coils for $700 off the forum? My climate control was burned out and nearly unusable at night, why not spend $265 for a used touchscreen digital unit off the forum? Why risk LCD screen replacement, or spend the outrageous amount for an OEM unit?
Sure some of my mods don't serve any purpose, the rims are from the PO, and some of the ground effects are from the PO, although I've replaced most and had the fiberglass repaired and repainted twice so far. You could probably argue that the money spent on my HID retrofit didn't provide that much value but I wanted to expand my knowledge base and it was worth it to me.
I think though the main answer for why we do these things, is because we know better.
Sell my only set of wheels to buy brakes..... Factory 15's must be worth alot.
Getting back to it, OP asked a question, he got an answer.
Total Cost VS Effectiveness. in the end i lose more then i get. Therefore silly.
03-23-15, 08:49 PM
#42
Wow.... This thread sure garnered a lot of emotion and rustled up a lot factoids on the LS400 BBK upgrade... It has been very entertaining and educational at the same time.
From the start, some form of a BBK upgrade has been on the list for my car so the LS400 calipers and associated pads and rotors seem to be the best route. Every time I wanted to begin the process another maintenance item popped up delaying it. Still on my "hit list" but I have no schedule.
From what little searching I have done, though, is the availability of rebuilt LS400 calipers waning? Do any CL members have a reliable, recommended source for the parts? I will use a reputable performance shop to do the install/upgrade but I first have to send the calipers to the paint shop.
Thanks....
From the start, some form of a BBK upgrade has been on the list for my car so the LS400 calipers and associated pads and rotors seem to be the best route. Every time I wanted to begin the process another maintenance item popped up delaying it. Still on my "hit list" but I have no schedule.
From what little searching I have done, though, is the availability of rebuilt LS400 calipers waning? Do any CL members have a reliable, recommended source for the parts? I will use a reputable performance shop to do the install/upgrade but I first have to send the calipers to the paint shop.
Thanks....
03-23-15, 09:17 PM
#43
Wow.... This thread sure garnered a lot of emotion and rustled up a lot factoids on the LS400 BBK upgrade... It has been very entertaining and educational at the same time.
From the start, some form of a BBK upgrade has been on the list for my car so the LS400 calipers and associated pads and rotors seem to be the best route. Every time I wanted to begin the process another maintenance item popped up delaying it. Still on my "hit list" but I have no schedule.
From what little searching I have done, though, is the availability of rebuilt LS400 calipers waning? Do any CL members have a reliable, recommended source for the parts? I will use a reputable performance shop to do the install/upgrade but I first have to send the calipers to the paint shop.
Thanks....
From the start, some form of a BBK upgrade has been on the list for my car so the LS400 calipers and associated pads and rotors seem to be the best route. Every time I wanted to begin the process another maintenance item popped up delaying it. Still on my "hit list" but I have no schedule.
From what little searching I have done, though, is the availability of rebuilt LS400 calipers waning? Do any CL members have a reliable, recommended source for the parts? I will use a reputable performance shop to do the install/upgrade but I first have to send the calipers to the paint shop.
Thanks....
03-23-15, 09:58 PM
#44
Here's a website I've been using for a while now that has saved me some SERIOUS time and money when searching for used OEM parts:
http://car-part.com/
It's an aggregator for junkyards and pretty straightforward in its use. You should be able to find exactly what you're looking for here.
Also, I'll second buying a rebuild kit through someplace like Rockauto or Amazon. Well worth the extra few bucks to know your calipers are in good shape.
03-23-15, 10:24 PM
#45
Yep, sounds like the old guy got you all going. He asked questions that have been discussed since Henry invented the model "T". Science, Applied engineering, Math have proven most of it, & some is just current style & trend, IN 20yrs it'll all be different again! Might not even have wheels on cars. LOL.
