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I personally think pinstripes are one of the worst things you can put on a car, and they NEVER look good. Getting rid of the stupid pinstripes was a good part of why I repainted my whole car, I hate them that much. And I repainted it 3L2. :P
Sure that's wheels with 50/50 shot at tires which would need replacement anyway Id bet.
Our opinions are going to be too far apart on this subject.
I still stand by what I say.
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So the brakes aren't for you because you might have to buy... tires?
You can sell your current set of rims and tires to offset the costs.
But you're saying the cheapest BBK setup for our car is a bad investment because a couple hundred for larger rims and possibly tires is too much for you? It's not even that you have to do the brakes when you have brand new pads and rotors on your own car. Pads and rotors cost money, so when they wear down and it's time to do them, maybe upgrade to the LS brakes instead. At that point you're maybe only blowing an extra $40 since you're replacing something thats worn anyways, and receiving sizable value for the additional $40 you spend. Tires are also a wear item, maybe upgrade to ls400 rims, when you're own tires are bad anyways, then it's money you'd have to spend in the first place and the additional $$ spent will provide added value, and who knows, now it's a 50/50 shot that the rims you get won't need new tires, and it's possible you could even save money doing that rather than buying 4 new tires.
Maybe you should just rephrase it to "I can't afford (or do not wish to spend my money) on the LS brakes, but I understand why others would consider it."
But that's ignoring the point, this doesn't have to be an expensive upgrade if you think about it for a few minutes and plan it out. And if you are rocking wider than stock tires this upgrade can provide an increase in stopping distance, and decrease brake fade.
Of course this goes back to OP's question, why do it at all? We can point to a few pieces of value here and there, but the argument always can and will hearken back to "but isn't it good enough already."
And honestly, yes. It is good enough already, but I think that the human mind is always striving for more. It's our capacity to do better and get the most for our money that drives us to build, but also fills us with regret and shame when we don't. Because we recognize what could be. If we weren't aware of the possibilities then good enough would be fine with me, and every other person on this forum. But when you think about paying $300 or more to have the front rotors and pads replaced with the same parts, and then you see the ls400 rotors and pads for sale on the forum for $250-$300 shipped it makes me feel stupid. I don't want to feel like I'm not getting the maximum amount of value from my $$. I'd feel like I'm betraying my love for this car if I did any less than use my $$ to its maximum leverage.
Simply knowing better almost forces my hand. My control arms were shot, why not save over $1,000 and get Supra LCA's for a more connected driving feeling? Stock struts and spring can run nearly $1,000 or more for parts alone, why not buy the BC racing coils for $700 off the forum? My climate control was burned out and nearly unusable at night, why not spend $265 for a used touchscreen digital unit off the forum? Why risk LCD screen replacement, or spend the outrageous amount for an OEM unit?
Sure some of my mods don't serve any purpose, the rims are from the PO, and some of the ground effects are from the PO, although I've replaced most and had the fiberglass repaired and repainted twice so far. You could probably argue that the money spent on my HID retrofit didn't provide that much value but I wanted to expand my knowledge base and it was worth it to me.
I think though the main answer for why we do these things, is because we know better.
BTW I just got my BBK calipers today, they were cheaper than the oem remans. So Much Yes!!
My car...Screw stock!!! I love hot rods!!
Longterm value... HA! if it had under 50k maybe id care!!
I took basically a shell that was destined for a yard somewhere and began to learn the cars engineering, To me its a canvas that I can create my version of automotive art. Its currently the prettiest car on the block imo, and makes me proud to own not just one, but this one!
It will never see a winter, It will live on its summer tires. It will come out of hibernation every year with a new found purpose, and direction. I will break it, I will fix it, i will break it, and will fix it, over and over until it cannot be done anymore.
May you find joy with your stock-ness that is a choice. I understand, I too have deep appreciation of an artists work. I will never alter my Art Carlson (RIP) designed Glastron CV-16ss. I cannot see any method to improve upon it. But an 1993 SC300!!! hell yeah! I can make that thing look meaner, I will remove the excess so it becomes leaner, and i will add to its form because I am a dreamer!
Again, it is my version of art. I shall choose the colors and designs to my liking, within that I find joy. Just please never tell me or any other artist, we're doing it wrong, and we will do the same.
Why ask so many questions, obviously op you probably don't work on your ride since it's in the shop right now. The mods you listed are common upgrades you can do to enhance the performance of your sc, so it would handle like a supra at a fraction of the cost of buying one, but not only that.
Most people who upgrade their sc300/400 want a performance over luxury including myself.
If you work on your car yourself, youre not only saving 1/2 the cost, but you can feel the upgrades you've done on your car immediately not to mention experience you gain to help you along the way.
Proper Lowering= better handling
Light Rims/ tires= handling and performance
Calipers= better stopping power
Pinstripes are gay=dated car dealership tricks to rip you off Why do we do this? Because we're men and that's what men do with their toys we make them faster, look better, and perform better that's all.
now go rip off the stripes and use the cash towards something that's actually needs attention, I know your car can use a maintenance!
Good luck!!
Why ask so many questions, obviously op you probably don't work on your ride since it's in the shop right now. The mods you listed are common upgrades you can do to enhance the performance of your sc, so it would handle like a supra at a fraction of the cost of buying one, but not only that.
Most people who upgrade their sc300/400 want a performance over luxury including myself.
If you work on your car yourself, youre not only saving 1/2 the cost, but you can feel the upgrades you've done on your car immediately not to mention experience you gain to help you along the way.
Proper Lowering= better handling
Light Rims/ tires= handling and performance
Calipers= better stopping power
Pinstripes are gay=dated car dealership tricks to rip you off Why do we do this? Because we're men and that's what men do with their toys we make them faster, look better, and perform better that's all.
now go rip off the stripes and use the cash towards something that's actually needs attention, I know your car can use a maintenance!
Good luck!!
I swear.... it seems like we can't go more than a few months in this place without some random person coming in here and either bashing these cars or questioning why people mod them a certain way. Didn't we just have a thread that grew to be several pages long about a guy who bought a POS SC for a couple of bucks where the previous owner butchered it with every mod he did to that car? This thread seems to be moving in the same direction with nice people babysitting this guy and telling him why we do what we do here. It's ridiculous.
Just want to point out, that in the context of street driving, if you really want your car to stop shorter you'd be better off getting wider/stickier tires or decreasing the weight of your car before converting to bigger brakes. Once you lock up the rotor, which the stock 2-piston calipers are more than capable of, the only thing determining your stopping distance are tires, weight of the car and road conditions.
If you're building a legit track/auto-x car, doing some serious canyon carving or just like the aesthetics then by all means it's a worthwhile upgrade. But if you think big brakes make a lick of difference in an emergency stop situation during normal street driving you're incorrect.
Got a little off topic but like most people here I mod my cars because I enjoy doing it and making it "mine". Whether it's a daily driver or a my race car.
Just want to point out, that in the context of street driving, if you really want your car to stop shorter you'd be better off getting wider/stickier tires or decreasing the weight of your car before converting to bigger brakes. Once you lock up the rotor, which the stock 2-piston calipers are more than capable of, the only thing determining your stopping distance are tires, weight of the car and road conditions.
If you're building a legit track/auto-x car, doing some serious canyon carving or just like the aesthetics then by all means it's a worthwhile upgrade. But if you think big brakes make a lick of difference in an emergency stop situation during normal street driving you're incorrect.
Got a little off topic but like most people here I mod my cars because I enjoy doing it and making it "mine". Whether it's a daily driver or a my race car.
1.) Wider and stickier tires are always a good investment for any car to improve braking distance at lockup. That's a given.
2.) I've locked up the stock 92-97 size SC300 brakes with wider/sticker tires in a mild emergency stop situation several years ago and nearly DIDN'T avoid an accident that would have been nearly impossible in many other vehicles. Since that incident and the installation of my TT/LS400 size brake calipers shortly after I consider them a near mandatory upgrade to early SC's. Note that for 92-97 SC300's especially the front brake rotors are actually SMALLER than the rear rotors.
3.) Even outside of canyon/auto-x driving the LS400 calipers are a night and day difference. Why are you focusing on panic stops only? There are a range of situations a car's brakes have to respond to BEFORE a panic stop situation even becomes imminent and for early SC's and especially the SC300's the factory front brakes aren't particularly good at much of anything. Sure, they will *eventually* stop the car and *can* survive a panic stop but they were not the best design choice for this size vehicle.
4.) Even with the marginally larger brakes the SC400 received there is still a long standing consensus on this forum that LS400 front calipers are a proven and effective way to completely improve the SC's braking performance in all situations. Panic stops are shorter, fade is dramatically reduced and repeated forceful slowdowns don't overwhelm or warp the rotors as before.
Unless you are always in every possible situation driving extremely slowly and leaving an extreme excess of car lengths ahead of you beyond what you normally should be the LS400 brake upgrade is not unsound advice.
I love people who bring up the panic stop argument to dissuade people from looking into cost effective brake upgrade choices which come from the OEM parts bin no less.
How about we question why Tesla Model S sedans all come with massive brakes from the factory and not significantly smaller sliding two-piston calipers which are still perfectly capable of surviving a single panic stop.
I mean, as long as you don't expect anything more than borderline acceptable panic stop braking performance in a heavy automobile what's the problem, right?
There was a similar back and forth thread argument in one of the IS250/350 subsections a couple of years ago. It was pointless.
The LS400 front caliper upgrade is not overkill.
The TT Supra caliper upgrade is not overkill but also isn't necessary over the less costly and similarly designed LS400 calipers.
The horrendously expensive Brembo aftermarket front brake upgrade kit with six piston calipers *IS* overkill. Unless you own a 700++ wheel horsepower turbocharged SC.
I feel like since the OP hasnt chimed in on anything he might be trolling Those questions are so easily answered by even the most basic of a google search... I think it worked...
1.) Wider and stickier tires are always a good investment for any car to improve braking distance at lockup. That's a given.
2.) I've locked up the stock 92-97 size SC300 brakes with wider/sticker tires in a mild emergency stop situation several years ago and nearly DIDN'T avoid an accident that would have been nearly impossible in many other vehicles. Since that incident and the installation of my TT/LS400 size brake calipers shortly after I consider them a near mandatory upgrade to early SC's. Note that for 92-97 SC300's especially the front brake rotors are actually SMALLER than the rear rotors.
3.) Even outside of canyon/auto-x driving the LS400 calipers are a night and day difference. Why are you focusing on panic stops only? There are a range of situations a car's brakes have to respond to BEFORE a panic stop situation even becomes imminent and for early SC's and especially the SC300's the factory front brakes aren't particularly good at much of anything. Sure, they will *eventually* stop the car and *can* survive a panic stop but they were not the best design choice for this size vehicle.
4.) Even with the marginally larger brakes the SC400 received there is still a long standing consensus on this forum that LS400 front calipers are a proven and effective way to completely improve the SC's braking performance in all situations. Panic stops are shorter, fade is dramatically reduced and repeated forceful slowdowns don't overwhelm or warp the rotors as before.
Unless you are always in every possible situation driving extremely slowly and leaving an extreme excess of car lengths ahead of you beyond what you normally should be the LS400 brake upgrade is not unsound advice.
I love people who bring up the panic stop argument to dissuade people from looking into cost effective brake upgrade choices which come from the OEM parts bin no less.
How about we question why Tesla Model S sedans all come with massive brakes from the factory and not significantly smaller sliding two-piston calipers which are still perfectly capable of surviving a single panic stop.
I mean, as long as you don't expect anything more than borderline acceptable panic stop braking performance in a heavy automobile what's the problem, right?
There was a similar back and forth thread argument in one of the IS250/350 subsections a couple of years ago. It was pointless.
The LS400 front caliper upgrade is not overkill.
The TT Supra caliper upgrade is not overkill but also isn't necessary.
The horrendously expensive Brembo aftermarket front brake upgrade kit with six piston calipers *IS* overkill. Unless you have 700whp+ turbocharged SC.
Some good points and after re-reading my original post sorry if it came off as trying to dissuade people from performing the upgrade. It is certainly cost effective, easy enough to do and I'll even concede that it is an all around better braking system. Hell, when it's time to work on my own SC I'll be performing the LS brake upgrade because it won't cost much more and I think it looks better.
That being said, my sole point was about it improving panic stops in daily driving scenarios. I, like others, bring up panic stops because frankly that's when your brakes matter the most and if what you have is strong enough to lock up the wheels already then bigger brakes aren't going to slow you down any faster. Better tires and lighter weight will. Maybe the SC300 brakes are so woefully underpowered that the LS swap is worthwhile. You mentioned that it was a consensus feeling that it's a worthwhile upgrade and has noticeable improvements. Did anyone ever do testing from 60 - 0 to confirm this or is it the same thing as a "butt dyno"?
Not to sound like a ****, but a little over 500 years ago there was a consensus that the Earth was flat and that the Sun revolved around us. The consensus isn't always correct. I find it hard to believe that engineers at Toyota/Lexus would put a car on the road with a brake system incapable of stopping the wheels in an emergency and that is susceptible to brake fade under normal driving conditions. Also, if you're driving aggressively enough in your day-to-day life that brake fade on a well maintained stock brake system comes into play then you're probably in a pretty small minority.
I know you mentioned your own personal experience with a panic stop and why you upgraded. Cool, I get it. It's just generally been my experience that the majority of panic stops happen when people are driving to fast, or are to close to people in front of them, or are just not paying attention to the road. I've been guilty as Hell of these at various times in my life. I'm not saying this is what your particular situation was, just a general observation of mine from living in big cities in multiple countries. The best safety device in a car is an aware driver.
As for why Tesla is putting big brakes on their car I couldn't tell you. I suspect they either think that people buying them will drive aggressively enough that brake fade will factor into the normal driving equation or it's purely marketing.
Anyway, I didn't mean to start up an argument on my first post on these forums. We can agree to disagree. If I ever run into you in the real world first beer's on me.
I disagree.
I could be mistaken, but I don't think I am.
We're talking about shear-stress (pun intended).
The more powerful your car is, the more stress is placed on the brakes to do what you said - Lock up the rotor.
So you benefit from better calipers, because they do that sooner.
1 rev./s. = 2π rad./rev. = 2π rad./s ... Multiplied by "x" (whatever the top speed of your car is); meaning that every time you up your Hp. (which translates into higher-top speed) you then have to solve for "x".
So the higher the RPM (in the wheels), the more force is imposed upon the brake-pistons; therefore by adding two additional pistons, you reduce the amount of stress by half, while doubling your stopping power.
ΔT ∝ -Δv (where Tau = Force/Area)
So the reduction in shear-stress is proportional to the change in velocity.
4 > 2 (Pistons).
Your math is fine. Where you went off track a bit though was with the higher HP = higher MPH. The potential for higher MPH is true with more power, but in the context of daily driving which was my original point, stopping from a speed of 70MPH is the same whether your HP = 100, 1,000, or 10,000. If your stock brakes can lock up the wheel at that speed then rotor size and amount of pistons in your caliper becomes a moot point. Tires, weight of the car and road condition become the only factors remaining to get you to 0MPH.
By all means though if we're driving on the same highway and you're moving along at 160MPH in a 600HP car, please have bigger than stock brakes.
03-22-15, 01:13 PM
