W58 builders?
12-09-14, 02:26 PM
#1
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W58 builders?
I have a couple questions that are hopefully not too dumbed down. It seems to me the obvious hold up with the SC cars is the W58 weakness. Some people get them to hold up longer than others, but ultimately once you breech 400ft-lbs it's just a matter of time until that grenade pops.
Most opt for the R154 but some are going more exotic with the 6-speed. Is there a design flaw in the W58 that can't be beefed up? I've seen some people have fair results with cryo-treating gears for other cars, even though it's stupid expensive! After reading what all you have to do to swap an R154 in it makes me think it's better to just be happy with 400hp and call it a day. Based on my calcs you'd be hard pressed to swap for less than $1800-2000 these days as they are getting harder to find. Which is why I wonder what the culprit for tranny failure is and are there any shops that improve on the W58?
All that said, the SC platform is kinda obese for curb weight. So it takes a little more ooomph to feel the power, but that can also result in more weight over the rear tires. So for those who already have around 400hp, how much traction will your street tires get through 3rd gear and are you satisfied? Thanks for those who read this far!
Most opt for the R154 but some are going more exotic with the 6-speed. Is there a design flaw in the W58 that can't be beefed up? I've seen some people have fair results with cryo-treating gears for other cars, even though it's stupid expensive! After reading what all you have to do to swap an R154 in it makes me think it's better to just be happy with 400hp and call it a day. Based on my calcs you'd be hard pressed to swap for less than $1800-2000 these days as they are getting harder to find. Which is why I wonder what the culprit for tranny failure is and are there any shops that improve on the W58?
All that said, the SC platform is kinda obese for curb weight. So it takes a little more ooomph to feel the power, but that can also result in more weight over the rear tires. So for those who already have around 400hp, how much traction will your street tires get through 3rd gear and are you satisfied? Thanks for those who read this far!
12-09-14, 02:57 PM
#2
the w58 was not designed to hold the power. the R154 was designed to hold more torque.
Its not a weakness in one specific part but overall, everything is smaller so its easier to break.
alot of people say they go out on a hard shift into 4th or stuff like that but I have heard of it failing a few ways.
Marlin crawler will build a W series transmission (mainly w55 found in the trucks) but its nearly identical except for the actual gear ratios between most W series, for example all W series have the same length input shaft between cars trucks and everything else. The R series had many different length input shafts because they were used in push and pull configurations depending on if it was a turbo car or not so it can have a better clutch to hold that power.
I still don't think a built w58 would hold up that much longer, maybe you can ask them how much power they are rated for after the build but even in the truck world they recommend the R150 truck v6 transmission when pushing more than stock power which is similar to the r154 (but has shorter input shaft).
I have my factory w58 and its not worth it to swap to a w58 if you are auto and going to turbo, just spend the extra grand and do a r154 swap or one of the newer swaps. w58 swap is going to cost at least 1k plus various small things and you can do a whole r154 for closer to 2 plus odds and ends. also if you have a w58 car you can sell your w58 and get some money back.
Mine seems to be holding 400 just fine but I don't abuse it. good street tires will get traction for whatever the w58 can handle even with the open diff, my supra tt wheels do just fine. I do spin a wheel out sometimes and the solution for that is lsd, then you can put even more power but I must give caution that the more traction you get with the w58, the more likely you are to break it, like a lsd and turning the boost up will make it break faster than if you are on an open diff and keep the boost within reason.
take a look at this diagram for beefiness of the trans, remember the W series started out life on a 75hp carbuerated motor that barely putts along, and was built up over the years to the w58 we have today but by no means is going to handle more than 400 reliably. The r154 was designed to handle more torque plain and simple, and it shows.
Its not a weakness in one specific part but overall, everything is smaller so its easier to break.
alot of people say they go out on a hard shift into 4th or stuff like that but I have heard of it failing a few ways.
Marlin crawler will build a W series transmission (mainly w55 found in the trucks) but its nearly identical except for the actual gear ratios between most W series, for example all W series have the same length input shaft between cars trucks and everything else. The R series had many different length input shafts because they were used in push and pull configurations depending on if it was a turbo car or not so it can have a better clutch to hold that power.
I still don't think a built w58 would hold up that much longer, maybe you can ask them how much power they are rated for after the build but even in the truck world they recommend the R150 truck v6 transmission when pushing more than stock power which is similar to the r154 (but has shorter input shaft).
I have my factory w58 and its not worth it to swap to a w58 if you are auto and going to turbo, just spend the extra grand and do a r154 swap or one of the newer swaps. w58 swap is going to cost at least 1k plus various small things and you can do a whole r154 for closer to 2 plus odds and ends. also if you have a w58 car you can sell your w58 and get some money back.
Mine seems to be holding 400 just fine but I don't abuse it. good street tires will get traction for whatever the w58 can handle even with the open diff, my supra tt wheels do just fine. I do spin a wheel out sometimes and the solution for that is lsd, then you can put even more power but I must give caution that the more traction you get with the w58, the more likely you are to break it, like a lsd and turning the boost up will make it break faster than if you are on an open diff and keep the boost within reason.
take a look at this diagram for beefiness of the trans, remember the W series started out life on a 75hp carbuerated motor that barely putts along, and was built up over the years to the w58 we have today but by no means is going to handle more than 400 reliably. The r154 was designed to handle more torque plain and simple, and it shows.
Last edited by Ali SC3; 12-09-14 at 03:00 PM.
12-09-14, 10:12 PM
#3
the w58 was not designed to hold the power. the R154 was designed to hold more torque.
Its not a weakness in one specific part but overall, everything is smaller so its easier to break.
alot of people say they go out on a hard shift into 4th or stuff like that but I have heard of it failing a few ways.
Marlin crawler will build a W series transmission (mainly w55 found in the trucks) but its nearly identical except for the actual gear ratios between most W series, for example all W series have the same length input shaft between cars trucks and everything else. The R series had many different length input shafts because they were used in push and pull configurations depending on if it was a turbo car or not so it can have a better clutch to hold that power.
I still don't think a built w58 would hold up that much longer, maybe you can ask them how much power they are rated for after the build but even in the truck world they recommend the R150 truck v6 transmission when pushing more than stock power which is similar to the r154 (but has shorter input shaft).
I have my factory w58 and its not worth it to swap to a w58 if you are auto and going to turbo, just spend the extra grand and do a r154 swap or one of the newer swaps. w58 swap is going to cost at least 1k plus various small things and you can do a whole r154 for closer to 2 plus odds and ends. also if you have a w58 car you can sell your w58 and get some money back.
Mine seems to be holding 400 just fine but I don't abuse it. good street tires will get traction for whatever the w58 can handle even with the open diff, my supra tt wheels do just fine. I do spin a wheel out sometimes and the solution for that is lsd, then you can put even more power but I must give caution that the more traction you get with the w58, the more likely you are to break it, like a lsd and turning the boost up will make it break faster than if you are on an open diff and keep the boost within reason.
take a look at this diagram for beefiness of the trans, remember the W series started out life on a 75hp carbuerated motor that barely putts along, and was built up over the years to the w58 we have today but by no means is going to handle more than 400 reliably. The r154 was designed to handle more torque plain and simple, and it shows.
Its not a weakness in one specific part but overall, everything is smaller so its easier to break.
alot of people say they go out on a hard shift into 4th or stuff like that but I have heard of it failing a few ways.
Marlin crawler will build a W series transmission (mainly w55 found in the trucks) but its nearly identical except for the actual gear ratios between most W series, for example all W series have the same length input shaft between cars trucks and everything else. The R series had many different length input shafts because they were used in push and pull configurations depending on if it was a turbo car or not so it can have a better clutch to hold that power.
I still don't think a built w58 would hold up that much longer, maybe you can ask them how much power they are rated for after the build but even in the truck world they recommend the R150 truck v6 transmission when pushing more than stock power which is similar to the r154 (but has shorter input shaft).
I have my factory w58 and its not worth it to swap to a w58 if you are auto and going to turbo, just spend the extra grand and do a r154 swap or one of the newer swaps. w58 swap is going to cost at least 1k plus various small things and you can do a whole r154 for closer to 2 plus odds and ends. also if you have a w58 car you can sell your w58 and get some money back.
Mine seems to be holding 400 just fine but I don't abuse it. good street tires will get traction for whatever the w58 can handle even with the open diff, my supra tt wheels do just fine. I do spin a wheel out sometimes and the solution for that is lsd, then you can put even more power but I must give caution that the more traction you get with the w58, the more likely you are to break it, like a lsd and turning the boost up will make it break faster than if you are on an open diff and keep the boost within reason.
take a look at this diagram for beefiness of the trans, remember the W series started out life on a 75hp carbuerated motor that barely putts along, and was built up over the years to the w58 we have today but by no means is going to handle more than 400 reliably. The r154 was designed to handle more torque plain and simple, and it shows.
12-10-14, 07:43 AM
#4
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Thanks for the diagram, it definitely shows the difference.
It surprises me that nobody has really addressed the issue years later but I'm guessing it's because most high HP racers just went with a built TH400 or similar autos so there was no need for a better gearbox. It's funny because a lot of high HP fwd cars can push 400+ on a stock tranny that was designed for 140 ft-lbs.
My goal is to compete with the LS V8s and modded Mustangs, but the stock tranny probably won't take much of that abuse. I may have to settle for 380whp or so and call it a day.
It surprises me that nobody has really addressed the issue years later but I'm guessing it's because most high HP racers just went with a built TH400 or similar autos so there was no need for a better gearbox. It's funny because a lot of high HP fwd cars can push 400+ on a stock tranny that was designed for 140 ft-lbs.
My goal is to compete with the LS V8s and modded Mustangs, but the stock tranny probably won't take much of that abuse. I may have to settle for 380whp or so and call it a day.
12-10-14, 09:04 AM
#5
As long as you dont beat on the w58 and have a proper clutch setup and I highly recommend putting in Redline MT-90 fluid......I have pushed mine pretty hard so far and have yet to see any problems with it handling the power....Just dont do any hard launches or hard downshifts and it shouldnt be a problem....but ultimately at some point it will fail.....and will have to go either R154 or V160
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