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I initially laughed at this thread. "Why isn't my car worth more?" Seriously? If any of us haven't figured out by now that cars are money pits then we should all just sell what we've got and head on over to Buick for that slow ride to death.
As someone mentioned, it's only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. The effort you put into your car will never be returned to you in a monetary value. Period. If you think otherwise you're in for a rude awakening.
Sure it's a shame that everyone and their mother is on the "Drift Missile" *** bandwagon. Everyone's beat to ****/cut up Nissan is suddenly worth $5k. A while back I went to look at a kids REBUILT S14, that was just rife with issues that he failed to disclose prior to me coming to look at the car and the kid STILL wanted $3K for it. I laughed and told him I'd light my $3k on fire before I gave it to him for his car.
You buy a car because in your head you see an end result, and this is your base or canvas. Personally I think it's silly to get upset because someone else's perceived values don't align with your own.
A while back I went to look at a kids REBUILT S14, that was just rife with issues that he failed to disclose prior to me coming to look at the car and the kid STILL wanted $3K for it. I laughed and told him I'd light my $3k on fire before I gave it to him for his car.
Yep. BIG difference between examples like those and a car someone has actually attempted to restore or restomod the right and often expensive way. It shouldn't be surprising that what we find for sale is almost always the former.
The NICE old SC's are most certainly trending higher. I've been looking to score on a super clean low miles car, but whenever I find one they are ALWAYS thousands above KBB, and KBB is high to begin with.
I keep seeing old SC's with CRAZY high asking prices. CL LA has a black 92 for 19K and I had to laugh. There was a low miles burgundy 92 for 12K, and the ad was gone pretty quickly, so I have to assume they got some kind of offer.
There's a really nice 98 with low miles, but the guy is firm at 8500. Still too rich for me when KBB is 6K. I just can't justify paying 2500 over book. Well, and I HATE flippers and dealers. The ***** probably got the car for 3K at auction.
I'll sit it out and watch for a clean one owner low miles car for a more fair price.
But from the looks of it I might have a long wait.
Like I've said before, if I can't score an SC for the right price, I'll just move up to an IS 350.
Hate to have to go back into a 4-door car, now that the kids are grown. Would be happy upgrading to a 98-2000 sc400. They come and go and you have to be looking constantly.
People are ridiculous; who gives a crap about what KBB says???
KBB is just a guide ... Nothing more.
I've already said this, but it doesn't take into account things like aftermarket mods, collector, aesthetic, or historic value. The SC300 is a car with all three of those things. However, KBB is only gonna consider the year it was built, and the mileage therein; that's it.
Is that REALLY something to go by???
Of course not!
If you buy a CLEAN '00 SC, for $4000, and then you put on a Titan: Turbo Kit, and Varstooens (sp?); is it still worth $4000?
NO!
Yet KBB isn't gonna change it's value for that; theres no sub-section that states:
*If seller has added a turbo-kit, add $3000.
*If seller has installed a 2JZ-GTE Motor, add $4000.
etc.
It's retarded; who cares what KBB says; this is the Tuner Market; nothing you buy will be stock.
KBB's prices are:
1. For stock cars.
2. For people who don't know a lick about cars, and need a general idea of where to start.
It's a mediocre resource in our market.
Perfect example:
Who in the right mind thinks a Twin-Turbo Toyota Supra, in EXCELLENT condition, is only worth $13,500??????
The Supra MKIV TT is a very good example of an exception to the standard market value rule. KBB conveniently ignores that there were only 12,000 or so ever made no matter the trim level. It's worth noting that the Supra TT's that retain the highest value are still lower mileage and stock or somewhat close to stock/BPU. Money-no-object builds can command similar value but that comes down to appraisal and such.
It's a far better example than an SC is but I agree: KBB value can't realistically be universally applied to every single vehicle out there. If that were actually the case then why is it that the fully loaded eight year old FWD Lexus ES on auto trader holds less value than several shrewdly singled out choice RWD performance vehicles that tend to offer a manual gearbox and 300 or (far) more standard horsepower?
Iconic performance cars or rarely optioned factory performance specials that are closer to original condition will always best fit the anti-KBB argument far, far better but it's ridiculous to think that a restored SC (that isn't a basket case) with a lot of hard to find performance hardware added isn't going to be in a very different buyer market and therefore pricing category than a completely stock vehicle.
I'll bring up three exceptions to the exception argument:
Porsche 928's (especially the pre-S4's)
BMW 840's & 850CSi's (perhaps excepting the 6-speed manual versions)
Nissan 300ZX TT's
All of these cars classed alongside Supra TT 6-speeds back in the day, yet rarely do any of those three models hold value like MKIV TT's despite offering very similar stock-for-stock performance hardware, numbers and original popular status. All still retain somewhat respectable used values when in good tune and condition (or low miles) but they all notably have some serious maintenance and reliability quirks or cost a lot more to maintain than a Supra TT which has an impeccable record.
I tend to think that turbocharged SC's with all the best trimmings people want tend to fall into the general value ranges cars like those fall into, even though such SC's can never claim originality.
The REAL performance hardware installed into serious rear-drive or AWD chassis that buyers like us want will always be more expensive, rarer to find and not so easy to obtain from your corner Autozone OR the option list at your local dealer (if you were buying new). The market for iconic and original factory performance specials aside, those things are generally going to make a used car cost more than the plain-jane underpowered, understeering grandma variant of the same vehicle that KBB is generalizing.
Everything can be had with a "premium stereo" or powered leather seats with cozy butt-heaters but not everything can be had with 300 or more bulletproof reliable horsepower, an LSD, a strong manual transmission or impressive handling AND all of those nice cushy luxury features as the cream on top.
Enter the usual suspect performance options everyone wants on an SC into Autotrader or various Craigslists or model-specific forums and see what other brands and makes offering the same hardware (or at least a factory turbo engine or an LS1/2/3 V8) tend to go for used. Popular models will list higher but unless it's a vehicle with an obviously crappy chassis you'll definitely find bargains but they won't exactly be "cheap" bargains unless you think $12k minimum, $16k average and $20k very, very high are bargain price ranges.
Here's something interesting and mostly related (although a bit inverse). It comes from this article Jalopnik just posted about what it's like to be a salesman at a car dealership but this one bit about how a dealer views KBB values is eye opening.
("What do your customers under/over value?
Customer's overvalue their trade and undervalue our products. Look, Kelly Blue Book does not write checks for cars. Your 75,000 mile Acura is going to rot on my used car lot. Every month your car is losing 2% of its value before I attach my expenses to it. A lot of cars go to wholesalers (who offer only marginally more than auction), and your junker goes to the block. I am looking at minimizing risk.
Kelly Blue Book only works if I can sell your car at full Kelly Blue Book retail. Get it? Yes Kelly says its worth $5k and it also says I can sell it at a dealership for $9k. Okay, great. Now add on all the expenses to get it ready for sale. Tires, brakes, that little light that keeps coming on, that noise in the back, the safety check, and reconditioning. Now I have about $1500 in it. Thats $6500. Your car rots here for two months—that's another 5% loss in value, plus my expenses applied to it, and that's another G note. Now your car has cost me about $7000. Some guy comes in and sees it for sale for $9000 and offers me $6k—what do I do? Get it? I don't care about Kelly Blue Book, no dealership does. We care about if we can sell your car."
I assume 99% of the time he's not dealing with anything particularly rare or special. He'd probably also have some choice words to say about trading a heavily modified vehicle, however good it is. Obviously we're discussing used market private sale valuation or appraisal.
Still... it seemed like an interesting side note to throw into the discussion.
Here's something interesting and mostly related (although a bit inverse). It comes from this article Jalopnik just posted about what it's like to be a salesman at a car dealership but this one bit about how a dealer views KBB values is eye opening.
([I]"What do your customers under/over value?
Customer's overvalue their trade and undervalue our products. Look, Kelly Blue Book does not write checks for cars. Your 75,000 mile Acura is going to rot on my used car lot...
That's quite ironic. Years ago, I learned one of the tricks of the trade at an Acura dealership. I had done my homework beforehand and knew the KBB value on the car I was looking to trade in and on the one I was looking to purchase, and the blue book values the salesmen were telling me didn't line up. I finally convinced them to show me the book so I could see for myself. At first glance, everything looked legit, but then I noticed it was an imitation KBB! It looks almost exactly like the real thing -- color, seal, layout, and a slightly misspelled name -- but with adjusted prices so they can give less on the trade-in and get more on the asking price.
Now that is not something I'd have expected-- an imitation KBB guide. That's amazing and low of whomever uses such a thing. The more you know...
...or maybe it's just indicative of Acura dealerships.
I suspect it is, or was, a commonly used device, given the cost to produce and update such a thing, and the need to spread those costs among a large number of users.
12-21-14, 10:50 AM
