cheap Supra MkIV using SC300/400
12-25-12, 01:21 AM
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cheap Supra MkIV using SC300/400
Hello,
I've been shopping for a performance RWD car on a budget ($12K max total budget) and just found that SC300/400's are now affordable. A bit of context: I hopped up a 1975 Celica in the late 1980's, had several other Toyotas, including MkIII Supras and was active in SOGI including meets and fun drives. I since had to sell off everything, and am finally able to get a Toy again.
I had the most fun with that old Celica, because I could force a U-turn in an intersection at speed by whipping the rear end around and then peeling out until my tire grabbed and could take off in the other direction, and could really thrash around in that old beast. I suppose I 'drifted' though I don't think that term was invented yet.
My stock automatic 1985 Celica had all the luxury I needed, though it was a complete bore to drive.
My 1987 Supra NA (MkIII - 7M-GE) 5 speed was a great car for me.
My 1990 Supra Turbo (MkIII - 7M-GTE) automatic was powerful, but I had to get it up to speed before really having any fun; and at that point I'd be risking jail (or need to go to the track) so never really took it to it's limit.
Supra MkIV's are completely out of my price range, especially because I'd want to really beat on it. Lexus SC300/400's are now at the age where I can get one cash, swap the motor, tranny, differential, suspension, brakes, do the obvious BFI, battery, wiring, fan mods, and forgive me if this seems a sacrilege, completely gut several hundred pounds out of the Lexus SC, and possibly take it autocrossing. Joining this forum demanded that I choose a model so I gave the example of a 1995 SC400. The stock 1UZ-FE has all the power I want, and if I blow an engine or equipment I'd just replace it. VVTi started in 1997? so that might give more power across a flat power curve.
After reading many pages of forums, I found in your FAQ:
===============================================
I hate to tell you, but the majority of people will buy the $4500 car and plan on fixing things. Here's what that will cost you.......
leather kit from leatherseats.com- $650
used radio and climate- $250
used changer- $150
PS pump- $200 (or steering rack $800)
New bushings on all arms- $800 (installed)
Engine and tranny mounts- $400 installed
a grand in tuneup maintenance, and that's cheap $1000
Total $2600-$3200+ parts and labor.
+4500 = $7700.00
===============================================
For that example car, I'd have to fix the steering, would probably swap the arms to Supra, install solid or just firmer mounts, and change out all the belts and such - but possibly buy a car that needs a motor and freshen it before dropping it in.
I'd also strip (and sell if buyers can be found) the interior, sound system, air conditioning, climate control system, dry-ice the soundproofing, and shed every pound I can manage.
I'd install one Recarro seat, keep or install basic carpeting, swap to a manual transmission (R154?, W58?) for just stock power, an LSD differential, the usual brake upgrade, and coilovers. I'd do this in stages. Power-to-weight ratio matters, but for low speed I'm more inclined to do more weight reduction than power increases.
What I want is reasonable power in a RWD car for low speed performance. I might autocross (SCCA SOLOII) but the mountain roads where I live are a bit like a free autocross track! I'll drive on the freeway, but besides passing someone going up a mountain, I don't go 80mph - ever. I have to be smog-legal in California.
Here are the questions:
Is a Lexus SC300/400 suitable for my purpose?
Is the 1UZ-FE (being all aluminum) as light as a 2JZ-GE?
What year is most worth doing such a project?
If not a SC300/400, what Japanese RWD car would give the most performance for the money? 350Z?
I started a project intending to put a 2JZ-GE in a pre-smog Datsun 240Z, but could never get it finished. I'm considering the opposite approach of taking a luxury/sport modern car with sufficient power, and gutting all the weight.
Your responses are appreciated; I hope this proves to be an interesting thread for all.
Matthew
I've been shopping for a performance RWD car on a budget ($12K max total budget) and just found that SC300/400's are now affordable. A bit of context: I hopped up a 1975 Celica in the late 1980's, had several other Toyotas, including MkIII Supras and was active in SOGI including meets and fun drives. I since had to sell off everything, and am finally able to get a Toy again.
I had the most fun with that old Celica, because I could force a U-turn in an intersection at speed by whipping the rear end around and then peeling out until my tire grabbed and could take off in the other direction, and could really thrash around in that old beast. I suppose I 'drifted' though I don't think that term was invented yet.
My stock automatic 1985 Celica had all the luxury I needed, though it was a complete bore to drive.
My 1987 Supra NA (MkIII - 7M-GE) 5 speed was a great car for me.
My 1990 Supra Turbo (MkIII - 7M-GTE) automatic was powerful, but I had to get it up to speed before really having any fun; and at that point I'd be risking jail (or need to go to the track) so never really took it to it's limit.
Supra MkIV's are completely out of my price range, especially because I'd want to really beat on it. Lexus SC300/400's are now at the age where I can get one cash, swap the motor, tranny, differential, suspension, brakes, do the obvious BFI, battery, wiring, fan mods, and forgive me if this seems a sacrilege, completely gut several hundred pounds out of the Lexus SC, and possibly take it autocrossing. Joining this forum demanded that I choose a model so I gave the example of a 1995 SC400. The stock 1UZ-FE has all the power I want, and if I blow an engine or equipment I'd just replace it. VVTi started in 1997? so that might give more power across a flat power curve.
After reading many pages of forums, I found in your FAQ:
===============================================
I hate to tell you, but the majority of people will buy the $4500 car and plan on fixing things. Here's what that will cost you.......
leather kit from leatherseats.com- $650
used radio and climate- $250
used changer- $150
PS pump- $200 (or steering rack $800)
New bushings on all arms- $800 (installed)
Engine and tranny mounts- $400 installed
a grand in tuneup maintenance, and that's cheap $1000
Total $2600-$3200+ parts and labor.
+4500 = $7700.00
===============================================
For that example car, I'd have to fix the steering, would probably swap the arms to Supra, install solid or just firmer mounts, and change out all the belts and such - but possibly buy a car that needs a motor and freshen it before dropping it in.
I'd also strip (and sell if buyers can be found) the interior, sound system, air conditioning, climate control system, dry-ice the soundproofing, and shed every pound I can manage.
I'd install one Recarro seat, keep or install basic carpeting, swap to a manual transmission (R154?, W58?) for just stock power, an LSD differential, the usual brake upgrade, and coilovers. I'd do this in stages. Power-to-weight ratio matters, but for low speed I'm more inclined to do more weight reduction than power increases.
What I want is reasonable power in a RWD car for low speed performance. I might autocross (SCCA SOLOII) but the mountain roads where I live are a bit like a free autocross track! I'll drive on the freeway, but besides passing someone going up a mountain, I don't go 80mph - ever. I have to be smog-legal in California.
Here are the questions:
Is a Lexus SC300/400 suitable for my purpose?
Is the 1UZ-FE (being all aluminum) as light as a 2JZ-GE?
What year is most worth doing such a project?
If not a SC300/400, what Japanese RWD car would give the most performance for the money? 350Z?
I started a project intending to put a 2JZ-GE in a pre-smog Datsun 240Z, but could never get it finished. I'm considering the opposite approach of taking a luxury/sport modern car with sufficient power, and gutting all the weight.
Your responses are appreciated; I hope this proves to be an interesting thread for all.
Matthew
12-25-12, 03:25 AM
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It really comes down to your taste because you do have several options when it comes to RWD fun cars in your price range. If you're looking for a light and nimble car (based on your weight reduction statements) then I would go for something like a a Miata, older Audi, or an M3 BMW. The SC is a tank and it weighs a lot. The cars mentioned above have huge aftermarket support and you can find these cars online for pretty cheap. If you really want the experience of an MKIV, then "poor man's Supra", the SC would be perfect for you. The 350Z is also another option which you can find for around 10 grand or less for an earlier model.
Have you thought about the SC300 with a stock W58 5 speed? An upgraded clutch, suspension, and some weight reduction would make for a decent experience.
Have you thought about the SC300 with a stock W58 5 speed? An upgraded clutch, suspension, and some weight reduction would make for a decent experience.
12-25-12, 09:30 AM
#3
speed ans power seems very important for you , so your much better off going with the sc300 and throwing in a turbo, thats what the majority of people do here and many of them are making serious power.
I drive an sc4 and for me it is enough power, but its definitely not a race car in fact most cars on the road nowadays would beat it in any kind of race.
I drive an sc4 and for me it is enough power, but its definitely not a race car in fact most cars on the road nowadays would beat it in any kind of race.
12-25-12, 10:46 AM
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Strip a SC vs add power to light car
Thanks for the fast reply,
All my best cars have been Toyota, my tools and experience are geared for it, and used parts including JDM are relatively inexpensive in California. I don't want a 2-Seater or convertible, due in part to my location, and I really love torque and a flat/wide power-band. Keeping a small 4-banger at high rpms isn't really my style, and I don't like turbo lag or the huge expense and weight of a turbo system without lag. Instead of transplanting a powerful engine into a light body, this plan is to take a powerful car and make the body light. I've been discussing a transplant project with a fabrication shop, then had the idea a couple days ago that it is cheaper to strip a luxury car, even if that requires fabrication. A 350Z is a serious consideration, but would cost so much I'd be hard pressed to just maintain it.
The Miata is a perfect car for comparison, because of the huge contrast:
(I'll quote torque, because HP ratings can often represent power only at an ideal RPM)
Weight: 2350lbs, torque: 110lbs. Weight vs Torque = 21.3
Stock Lexus SC400 automatic: (heaviest model)
Weight: 3604lbs, torque: 260lbs. Weight vs Torque = 13.86
To make the Miata have the same ratio, I'd have to add 50lbs torque or swap the motor.
Strip 300lbs from the SC400, and the ratio goes down to 12.7, an improvement of 10% before even doing any performance mods. Lighter vs suspension design = more nimble.
"Poor Man's Supra" Thanks, I'll put that on my license plate surrounds.
BIG QUESTIONS:
Which model/year is best for autocross type hobby use, especially near 50/50 weight distribution?
(SC400 is 100lbs heavier than a SC300, but includes heavier brakes, wheels, and options)
How much weight can be shed from a SC cheaply? What about expensively?
Weights per Wiki:
SC300: 3505lbs (auto)
SC400: 3604lbs (auto)
MkIV Supra non-turbo: 3219lbs (trans not specified)
The cheaper the car I buy, the more I can afford to modify. So buying one with a blown engine and installing a replacement stock engine, W58, upgraded clutch, LSD, and matching driveline (or custom shaft) would be built into my initial purchase budget.
Are there any weight reductions available that aren't obvious, like fiberglass panels or swapped front clip?
Any parts that have such a huge demand that stripping mine would offset some cost? (air conditioning compressor, climate control system, sound system, stock rims, whole stock interior)
I just found a related post, with contradictory information (claims from ~3800lbs to ~3000lbs) and that thread isn't finished. That may answer my questions, except that nobody is starting from scratch.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sc-...-3000-lbs.html
I guess to refocus my question, how light can I make this car without spending a lot of money? I want to take corners at low speed like a race-car, not a tank.
I also see that pre-OBDII wiring may make life much simpler, suggesting 91-95, though VVTi is so much more powerful... My question still stands but I have a lot more reading to do:
http://www.intellexual.net/faq.html#029
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sc-...t-results.html
Another post claims a 60lb weight reduction swapping a VVTi 2JZ-GE to a VVTi 1UZ-FE, with the weight moved toward the rear.
http://lextreme.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11080
This suggests the SC400 is more to my preferences, even if I downgrade a bunch of equipment. Sounds like I hit a subject that has been gone over repeatedly for years, with contradictory results. Now that the subject is so old, can anyone recommend the best car for my purposes?
(No AC, gutted, stripped, etc - using basically a stock powerplant)
Thanks,
Matthew
All my best cars have been Toyota, my tools and experience are geared for it, and used parts including JDM are relatively inexpensive in California. I don't want a 2-Seater or convertible, due in part to my location, and I really love torque and a flat/wide power-band. Keeping a small 4-banger at high rpms isn't really my style, and I don't like turbo lag or the huge expense and weight of a turbo system without lag. Instead of transplanting a powerful engine into a light body, this plan is to take a powerful car and make the body light. I've been discussing a transplant project with a fabrication shop, then had the idea a couple days ago that it is cheaper to strip a luxury car, even if that requires fabrication. A 350Z is a serious consideration, but would cost so much I'd be hard pressed to just maintain it.
The Miata is a perfect car for comparison, because of the huge contrast:
(I'll quote torque, because HP ratings can often represent power only at an ideal RPM)
Weight: 2350lbs, torque: 110lbs. Weight vs Torque = 21.3
Stock Lexus SC400 automatic: (heaviest model)
Weight: 3604lbs, torque: 260lbs. Weight vs Torque = 13.86
To make the Miata have the same ratio, I'd have to add 50lbs torque or swap the motor.
Strip 300lbs from the SC400, and the ratio goes down to 12.7, an improvement of 10% before even doing any performance mods. Lighter vs suspension design = more nimble.
"Poor Man's Supra" Thanks, I'll put that on my license plate surrounds.
BIG QUESTIONS:
Which model/year is best for autocross type hobby use, especially near 50/50 weight distribution?
(SC400 is 100lbs heavier than a SC300, but includes heavier brakes, wheels, and options)
How much weight can be shed from a SC cheaply? What about expensively?
Weights per Wiki:
SC300: 3505lbs (auto)
SC400: 3604lbs (auto)
MkIV Supra non-turbo: 3219lbs (trans not specified)
The cheaper the car I buy, the more I can afford to modify. So buying one with a blown engine and installing a replacement stock engine, W58, upgraded clutch, LSD, and matching driveline (or custom shaft) would be built into my initial purchase budget.
Are there any weight reductions available that aren't obvious, like fiberglass panels or swapped front clip?
Any parts that have such a huge demand that stripping mine would offset some cost? (air conditioning compressor, climate control system, sound system, stock rims, whole stock interior)
I just found a related post, with contradictory information (claims from ~3800lbs to ~3000lbs) and that thread isn't finished. That may answer my questions, except that nobody is starting from scratch.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sc-...-3000-lbs.html
I guess to refocus my question, how light can I make this car without spending a lot of money? I want to take corners at low speed like a race-car, not a tank.
I also see that pre-OBDII wiring may make life much simpler, suggesting 91-95, though VVTi is so much more powerful... My question still stands but I have a lot more reading to do:
http://www.intellexual.net/faq.html#029
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sc-...t-results.html
Another post claims a 60lb weight reduction swapping a VVTi 2JZ-GE to a VVTi 1UZ-FE, with the weight moved toward the rear.
http://lextreme.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11080
This suggests the SC400 is more to my preferences, even if I downgrade a bunch of equipment. Sounds like I hit a subject that has been gone over repeatedly for years, with contradictory results. Now that the subject is so old, can anyone recommend the best car for my purposes?
(No AC, gutted, stripped, etc - using basically a stock powerplant)
Thanks,
Matthew
Last edited by 2Poor2Buy; 12-25-12 at 10:59 AM. Reason: typos, forgot to mention turbo lag
12-25-12, 12:18 PM
#5
Seems like you really want a performance oriented car. I will say that the SC's, 400 or 300 are far from that. I too have been toying around with the idea of turning my car in to a more track oriented vehicle. I'm not sure where your "aftermarket" knowledge is currently at. Building a responsive turbo setup on NA-T is not hard at all on these cars. Hell even turboing a 1UZ is an easy option in your price range. find yourself a B/W turbo, either S366 or an EFR 7670 with the internal gate. a set of cams, EMS, and tuning and you could keep it under 12K. Its very possible to do. I've been playing with 2J's for the better part of the last 8 year. Turbo lag is an after thought by today's technology.
The weight issue is another thing. If you really are looking at gutting the car, please factor this in. When people start talking of removing this, and replacing that, factor in weight bias. The JZZ chassis is built like a tank. I have done a few cars that have had lots of weight striped from them and the weight bias is all messed up. Im just rambling on about stuff really in between family stuff. Do a bit more research and you'll see what I'm talking about.
The weight issue is another thing. If you really are looking at gutting the car, please factor this in. When people start talking of removing this, and replacing that, factor in weight bias. The JZZ chassis is built like a tank. I have done a few cars that have had lots of weight striped from them and the weight bias is all messed up. Im just rambling on about stuff really in between family stuff. Do a bit more research and you'll see what I'm talking about.
12-25-12, 02:44 PM
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TougeSC3:
If the JZZ chassis is too heavy to be significantly reduced (I appreciate the mention of weight bias, and would try to get as near 25% per corner as possible, hopefully the AC compressor is on the left-front as that is the heaviest corner, could also move the battery and anything else possible to rear-right), can you recommend a chassis for RWD performance? I'm a Toyota/Nissan guy stuck with California SMOG laws, so I've discussed (seriously) framing out a pre-smog body to hold the drivetrain & suspension from late model cars. (240Z, 350Z subframes complete, VQ35DE or VK45DE) (240Z body, Toyota late model subframes complete & drivetrain)
I've just gone exhaustively through the Toyota/Lexus models, and the only lighter RWD model than an SC (besides MkIV Supra of course) only worthwhile if it does well on slalom/skidpad is the IS300, apparently the Sportcross has better handling because of the extra rear weight. Know anything of that model, or can you suggest another?
Cars.com has a clean 2004 IS300 Sportcross at $11,800 that would leave me tapped for several years, so I'd have to leave it stock until I pay it off; with some tired high-mileage 2001s starting at $5K.
If the JZZ chassis is too heavy to be significantly reduced (I appreciate the mention of weight bias, and would try to get as near 25% per corner as possible, hopefully the AC compressor is on the left-front as that is the heaviest corner, could also move the battery and anything else possible to rear-right), can you recommend a chassis for RWD performance? I'm a Toyota/Nissan guy stuck with California SMOG laws, so I've discussed (seriously) framing out a pre-smog body to hold the drivetrain & suspension from late model cars. (240Z, 350Z subframes complete, VQ35DE or VK45DE) (240Z body, Toyota late model subframes complete & drivetrain)
I've just gone exhaustively through the Toyota/Lexus models, and the only lighter RWD model than an SC (besides MkIV Supra of course) only worthwhile if it does well on slalom/skidpad is the IS300, apparently the Sportcross has better handling because of the extra rear weight. Know anything of that model, or can you suggest another?
Cars.com has a clean 2004 IS300 Sportcross at $11,800 that would leave me tapped for several years, so I'd have to leave it stock until I pay it off; with some tired high-mileage 2001s starting at $5K.
12-25-12, 03:39 PM
#7
I just never understand why people buy these cars only to remove and gut all the things that make it what it is ,,,a comfortable, stylish car with a luxurious feel,,,, if that isnt what your looking for why not try something else , like a honda or acura?
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12-25-12, 09:48 PM
#9
These cars do take a bit of work to make competitive. The weight isn't horrible, the chassis is stiff, the steering angle isn't the best, but can be improved. Think of the SC as a heavier, more luxurious Nissan 240. Not the best thing out of the box, but has a large window of improvement available. The SC can be a performance oriented car if built right. A lot of factory stuff can be stripped and redone. I say do it.
I will tell you this. From one car guy to another. I've been building cars for a long time. Yes I'm young, but I know my way in and out of anything you could think of. I have owned a Nissan sports car, have worked on all of their motors, and would never buy another. I don't see a reason to buy a car, just to upgrade it to make it "work". What I'm referring to is Nissan's inability to design a motor that isn't prone to oil pump failure. From VG to VR, SR to RB, They all have oiling issues.
I will tell you this. From one car guy to another. I've been building cars for a long time. Yes I'm young, but I know my way in and out of anything you could think of. I have owned a Nissan sports car, have worked on all of their motors, and would never buy another. I don't see a reason to buy a car, just to upgrade it to make it "work". What I'm referring to is Nissan's inability to design a motor that isn't prone to oil pump failure. From VG to VR, SR to RB, They all have oiling issues.
12-25-12, 10:48 PM
#10
With Cali smog laws I don't recommend an SC for your purposes. Maybe only the 98-00 SC400 which needs all the suspension work, brake upgrades, LSD swap, seat swap, transmission swap and other mods to make a stock 290hp/300tq engine work for you legally. Also, with the new 2013 smog regs techs now face, even a transmission swap may not pass visual or the BAR. 98-00 SC400's are auto only but you can swap to a W58/R154 manual and defeat the CEL light. It's just that it's getting tougher to change driveline hardware legally in Cali as of Jan 1st if you have a pre-2001 car.
The SC is the car for you but not when you're limited by a reasonable budget (ie: no full USDM 2JZGTE swap) and Cali's smog laws. Everywhere else in the country it isn't an issue.
Honestly, if you want a legal poor man's MKIV in Cali without overspending you'll still need to buy an MKIV TT.
The car is more than capable in all aspects despite being heavy. But legally where you are I'd suggest something else but there isn't much in the "legal" category for Cali that's cheap.
Try these, although they aren't ideal they fit price, power, capability, reliability and legality.
2004-06 Pontiac GTO 6-speed (feels as heavy as it is)
1999-2003 Ford Mustang Cobra 5-speed
2005-2007 Subaru Legacy GT 5-speed
2002-2006(?) Lexus IS300 5-speed
E36 M3
Newer... The Genesis Coupe R Spec fits the bill but its values are still much higher.
Anywhere else in the country... SC300 without a doubt.
The SC is the car for you but not when you're limited by a reasonable budget (ie: no full USDM 2JZGTE swap) and Cali's smog laws. Everywhere else in the country it isn't an issue.
Honestly, if you want a legal poor man's MKIV in Cali without overspending you'll still need to buy an MKIV TT.
The car is more than capable in all aspects despite being heavy. But legally where you are I'd suggest something else but there isn't much in the "legal" category for Cali that's cheap.
Try these, although they aren't ideal they fit price, power, capability, reliability and legality.
2004-06 Pontiac GTO 6-speed (feels as heavy as it is)
1999-2003 Ford Mustang Cobra 5-speed
2005-2007 Subaru Legacy GT 5-speed
2002-2006(?) Lexus IS300 5-speed
E36 M3
Newer... The Genesis Coupe R Spec fits the bill but its values are still much higher.
Anywhere else in the country... SC300 without a doubt.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 12-25-12 at 10:55 PM.
12-26-12, 12:47 AM
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KahnBB6 wrote:
2005-2007 Subaru Legacy GT 5-speed
2002-2006(?) Lexus IS300 5-speed
E36 M3
(plus you mentioned US cars, let's just say I'm metric)
Thanks. I read elsewhere on this forum that the IS300 has some serious shortcomings, but haven't given up on the SC400 plan yet (though I'd better check out the tranny change with the new smog laws, thanks), have the M3 on my list though just out of budget, but hadn't given Subaru much thought.
I have a pdf copy of SCCA SOLOII 2012 National Finals results, and not one Lexus placed, nor Supra. I did a search for Subaru and was surprised to see how many ~2002-current Subarus placed. They were almost all WRX; even a wagon. So I'll add Subaru ___ (models vary in choice of engines and trim, engine models are confusing [maybe EJ255, EJ257, EZ30D], so I must choose carefully) to my short-list. Entirely sufficient power though I was aiming for displacement, but ideal for autocross and (as the rain is slamming on my window sideways at the moment to remind me) good for mountain twisties in all weather, yet big enough to have a couple passengers plus groceries, without making the dog ride on the roof.
2003+ (must be <10 years old to get regular financing), choice depends entirely on engine & trim. I'm not inclined to build an older Subaru, as I would Toyota or Nissan, but using a Subie drivetrain in a pre-smog car? Maybe.
In case you are interested in that document:
http://www.scca.com/assets/results/2...0Nationals.pdf
Toyota's only winning models are tiny cars. No Supras, No Lexus. Plenty of M3s, Corvettes, 350Z, 370Z, S2000, and NSX; but Toyota just isn't being competitive in autocross. Passengers, groceries, plus mountain twisties? Apparently Toyota doesn't think that's as important as automatic climate control and motorized do-dads. I think Toyota makes great equipment, but their corporate decision makers mess up the products. (That is exactly what they did buying the Lotus X10 design and building the MkI MR2 using just Corolla level equipment, for example; then building a bloated MkII MR2)
2005-2007 Subaru Legacy GT 5-speed
2002-2006(?) Lexus IS300 5-speed
E36 M3
(plus you mentioned US cars, let's just say I'm metric)
Thanks. I read elsewhere on this forum that the IS300 has some serious shortcomings, but haven't given up on the SC400 plan yet (though I'd better check out the tranny change with the new smog laws, thanks), have the M3 on my list though just out of budget, but hadn't given Subaru much thought.
I have a pdf copy of SCCA SOLOII 2012 National Finals results, and not one Lexus placed, nor Supra. I did a search for Subaru and was surprised to see how many ~2002-current Subarus placed. They were almost all WRX; even a wagon. So I'll add Subaru ___ (models vary in choice of engines and trim, engine models are confusing [maybe EJ255, EJ257, EZ30D], so I must choose carefully) to my short-list. Entirely sufficient power though I was aiming for displacement, but ideal for autocross and (as the rain is slamming on my window sideways at the moment to remind me) good for mountain twisties in all weather, yet big enough to have a couple passengers plus groceries, without making the dog ride on the roof.
2003+ (must be <10 years old to get regular financing), choice depends entirely on engine & trim. I'm not inclined to build an older Subaru, as I would Toyota or Nissan, but using a Subie drivetrain in a pre-smog car? Maybe.
In case you are interested in that document:
http://www.scca.com/assets/results/2...0Nationals.pdf
Toyota's only winning models are tiny cars. No Supras, No Lexus. Plenty of M3s, Corvettes, 350Z, 370Z, S2000, and NSX; but Toyota just isn't being competitive in autocross. Passengers, groceries, plus mountain twisties? Apparently Toyota doesn't think that's as important as automatic climate control and motorized do-dads. I think Toyota makes great equipment, but their corporate decision makers mess up the products. (That is exactly what they did buying the Lotus X10 design and building the MkI MR2 using just Corolla level equipment, for example; then building a bloated MkII MR2)
Last edited by 2Poor2Buy; 12-26-12 at 10:25 AM. Reason: updated Subaru details
12-26-12, 07:23 AM
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After reading everything, i would say that the Legacy GT would definitely put out the power your looking for... My boss has one as he DD and i've driven it on multiple occasions... It's stock, but still somehow completely shocked the **** out of me when i downshifted and floored it.. it'll knock your head back if you aren't expecting it. As far as using an SC for those purposes. The block of the SC400 is lighter than the cast iron 2JZ, but the aftermarket for the 2JZ is massive and the power that you can reach is almost limitless if you were to look at some of these guys' setups. But smog restrictions in Cali are a pain...
IMHO, i'd say either a 350Z (short wheel base)... or Subie Legacy GT. Just be sure that if you do decide to go with the 350Z, get one 2006 or newer to avoid the notorious transmission issues that they had through 2005.
IMHO, i'd say either a 350Z (short wheel base)... or Subie Legacy GT. Just be sure that if you do decide to go with the 350Z, get one 2006 or newer to avoid the notorious transmission issues that they had through 2005.
12-26-12, 10:36 AM
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I was avoiding confusing the subject, but my giant dog must fit. Little two seaters are out, even the 350Z may not suffice. Otherwise an MR2 would be ideal.
12-26-12, 11:08 AM
#15
I read elsewhere on this forum that the IS300 has some serious shortcomings, but haven't given up on the SC400 plan yet (though I'd better check out the tranny change with the new smog laws, thanks), have the M3 on my list though just out of budget, but hadn't given Subaru much thought.
I have a pdf copy of SCCA SOLOII 2012 National Finals results, and not one Lexus placed, nor Supra. I did a search for Subaru and was surprised to see how many ~2002-current Subarus placed. They were almost all WRX; even a wagon. So I'll add Subaru ___ (models vary in choice of engines and trim, engine models are confusing [maybe EJ255, EJ257, EZ30D], so I must choose carefully) to my short-list. Entirely sufficient power though I was aiming for displacement, but ideal for autocross and (as the rain is slamming on my window sideways at the moment to remind me) good for mountain twisties in all weather, yet big enough to have a couple passengers plus groceries, without making the dog ride on the roof.
2003+ (must be <10 years old to get regular financing), choice depends entirely on engine & trim. I'm not inclined to build an older Subaru, as I would Toyota or Nissan, but using a Subie drivetrain in a pre-smog car? Maybe.
In case you are interested in that document:
http://www.scca.com/assets/results/2...0Nationals.pdf
2003+ (must be <10 years old to get regular financing), choice depends entirely on engine & trim. I'm not inclined to build an older Subaru, as I would Toyota or Nissan, but using a Subie drivetrain in a pre-smog car? Maybe.
In case you are interested in that document:
http://www.scca.com/assets/results/2...0Nationals.pdf
Toyota's only winning models are tiny cars. No Supras, No Lexus. Plenty of M3s, Corvettes, 350Z, 370Z, S2000, and NSX; but Toyota just isn't being competitive in autocross. Passengers, groceries, plus mountain twisties? Apparently Toyota doesn't think that's as important as automatic climate control and motorized do-dads. I think Toyota makes great equipment, but their corporate decision makers mess up the products. (That is exactly what they did buying the Lotus X10 design and building the MkI MR2 using just Corolla level equipment, for example; then building a bloated MkII MR2)
The SW20 MR2 is still a good car, I think, though not quite the same as the original. They often don't have the right upgraded turbo to keep the best driveability.Bottom line... I agree with Casper 9604. Subaru has now discontinued the Legacy GT trim level but the 2005-2007 model is the only one you'll want to consider. I'm actually thinking about one myself and very nearly did before I bought my SC.
Another note, though this is too new and out of the price range you stated but have you driven an FR-S? The criticism on horsepower does hold some water but in all other aspects, they are great cars and have a lot of potential as autocross cars. I just haven't seen much since the 90's that impressed me as much, save the Corvette Z06, until I drove that thing.
As for the SC and mountain twisties... they are excellent at that task when set up properly. Canyon runs are my single most favorite time driving my car. Look up the Gixxer_Drew suspension on SF and see what you think of that. Go for the 500/250 suspension if you want to have a smoother ride or 600/325 if you don't mind a slight bit of stiffness. Throw in an LSD, TT rear swaybar and take care of your steering rack bushings, front LCA's and install LS400/TT brakes up front and you'll have a very competent canyon car.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 12-26-12 at 11:16 AM.