KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

Everything Ali SC3 has said above is the truth regarding carbon fiber on SC's and the strength of the chassis itself. And he's correct about carbon fiber on these cars. A CF hood can save a little weight and a CF trunk can save a bit too but it's a very small amount. CF doors can significantly reduce the 90lbs per side of each door but you are most certainly sacrificing crucial crash safety and structural rigidity by doing this. I've looked into it and decided against all three despite the fact that less weight would help me just a bit in an NA car.

For an SC300 5-speed with weight reduction, to give you some idea I have a full interior car without aggressively having removed the sound deadening material or having added a CF hood, etc. The seats are lighter units from the Supra, wheels are TT Supra, including the small spare and other small improvements. From 3,506lbs stock I roughly calculated out perhaps a 3,400lb curb weight currently. I still don't know if the stock open diff pumpkin and TT Torsen pumpkins had much difference in weight so I may have added back.

Anyway, you can reduce weight more but I would venture a guess that even 3,300lbs will involve a substantial sacrifice of the interior and creature comforts. And this is well beyond just the heavy factory front seats (driver side can be as much as 74lbs). I don't think you're going to feel that much difference or benefit unless you're truly going to gut the car into a racing shell. If a dedicated racing car is what you'll eventually want then by all means, the game is incremental improvement to be competitive.

But as a street car I find the SC to be fairly nimble at 3,400lbs. Conversely, for truly light weight both the Scion FR-S (2,800lbs) and older 95-98 240SX (about the same) have a very different feel about them in addition to their shorter wheelbases. The SC when set up correctly can be a very nimble car but it will always be a big car compared to those two. An SC at 3,000lbs is not going to happen without losing nearly everything down to the metal and structural bits and even then I would imagine it would involve cutting away important parts of the chassis. An SC at 3,200lbs is further still going to be difficult without having a car that has an interior and dash.

Now, the 2JZGTE swap can be legal, yes. You can even use an R154 transmission to avoid the heavy expense of a V160 transmission. This will, however, be the most expensive swap you can possibly do to the SC because just about everything including the engine block itself has to have come from a USDM Supra of the same year or newer. The twin turbochargers in USDM form are very capable-- more so than the CT26 you mentioned which is a 7M turbo. Trouble with all of this is finding all the stock parts necessary including the factory side mount intercooler, air box, fuel pumps, VSV system, etc. You can't use a JDM 2JZGTE block even though it is mechanically the same thing and functions exactly the same for emissions. Likewise you can't use a JDM 2JZGTE head because it lacks EGR. It can be done and I thought of it myself but the way the BAR wants it done is very cost prohibitive. I never bothered to check and see whether or not I would have to replace the NA cats with Catco direct replacements made specifically for the turbo Supra. Piecing it all together over time is the only way to make it somewhat affordable but you still need a very **** factory setup to please the BAR. Most have recommended to me not to bother getting it inspected even if I did everything to the letter. Maybe they had bad past experiences.

Anyway, with all that I do not mean to totally discourage you but I do mean to caution you on cost and complexity. Especially with an SC300, try to figure out what you will want from the car first. Legal limitations cripple these cars in Cali but they are still very capable canyon driver cars with respectable quickness if you never touch the engine. This is not ideal and yes, there will be a lack of true horsepower and torque without a turbo but I have been surprised at how good the drivetrain and chassis can be in NA form from a driver's car standpoint.

That said, as I will be moving east soon and won't have this limitation I will eventually be looking into a 1JZGTE engine swap with catalytic convertors retained. The engine most likely will be stock/BPU however for my tastes. As an NA car, however, the 5-speed with a stock engine and uprated rear diff is a solid machine. The IS300 will have come with all the right equipment from the factory though if you can identify that the car you'd be looking at has an LSD axle code. Removing a limiting valve on the clutch line is all that's needed to improve clutch engagement/disengagement feel on the 1st gen IS.

2Poor2Buy

Thanks Guys,
My goals are not realistic. My intent is, but it doesn't add up. I've been wading through the weight loss thread mentioned, and have a long ways to go.

Price of SC300, carbon fiber full kit, titanium bolts, plastic tank, swap to Supra parts as mentioned, racing seats, and so forth is greater than just buying an IS-F, FR-S, or Supra MkIV. I cannot afford any of the above, of course.

What will I do? Make do for a few years, then get something that performs as desired for around $10K with a car loan.

Maybe SC300 5-speed, some mods, yank A/C, change seats, pull sound-deadening and padding, change rims, yank stereo, yank anything else that is heavy vs it's function, use Optima battery or custom NiMH pack near rear towers, light spare, plastic tank? Custom exhaust?, ... basically whatever is most cost-effective in removing several hundred pounds. Creature comforts? I don't much need them. Being able to sell off stuff that I remove would be a bonus. Finding a car that is already thrashed (so that which I would tear out doesn't cost anything) would also be a bonus. After completing many of these changes , I'd reassess my priorities.

2Poor2Buy

Okay, so I mentioned transplanting Lexus SC sub-frames under a pre-smog 240Z using race-fabrication shop for an underweight Supra, right? Not only is this doable, but such projects have been done and are on this forum. It took me this long to find them:
2332lb SC300 (that is not a typo!) using a Volvo pre-smog body
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sc-...rksheet-2.html
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sc-...p-build-6.html
http://www.pro-touring.com/showthrea...3794-Got-Volvo
and another, though I haven't even read this one yet:
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/674663/1971-datsun-510/ (Supra based 510 wagon)

I guess my old idea is not even unique, I just have to figure out if I can manage to do it.
[I took photos and measurements of my old Supra MkIII and a 240Z many years ago for this plan.
The very cool thing about these builds is that I can bring all the notes to the racing fabricator as a starting point for his build.

So just throwing out a rough draft (not that I can actually build it, or that it is the best plan):
240Z body
complete floor and "guts" of SC300/400 with Supra components where appropriate, even shorten the wheelbase
could use 1UZ-FE, but why not anything up to 2UR-GSE (Lexus IS-F) as long as I can get the complete wiring and accessories. (front clip from a JDM version not available here, and therefore lower price due to supply/demand?)
5-6 speed manual tranny appropriate to the power (Getrag, R154, T56)
Custom one-piece aluminum driveshaft

Maybe LS1/T56 makes more sense, but I stick to Toyota when I can, and a JDM engine may save money

Of course, using 100% Toyota (old Celica body/bodies) would be nice - and certainly unique.

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

Now you're getting into real hot-rodder territory the way it used to be done. I've seen that SC/Volvo thread and it's a fantastic idea. It's an all-consuming project not for the faint of heart but there it is. I wouldn't bother grafting an SC chassis under a 73 or older 240Z. Why not look into a 240SX S14 chassis transplant if you were going to hack up a classic like a 240Z? It's smaller and more suited to a vehicle of that size.

This is getting into serious long-term project idea brainstorming now.

Your goals may be better achieved with a Supra MKII with a 7MGTE (I know you've already maintained one of those in the past) or stock 2JZ-GE swap instead of an SC if you aren't looking into custom fabricating a car. I think you should see an SC 5-speed in person before you decide to completely change the vehicle beyond its original intentions and gut everything.

The cost and complexity of the 2UR-GSE, may shock you when you see what they sell for. Sticking with an LS1/LS2 and T56 trans is one of the best powertrain options out there for a swap car. I'd say the same for the 1UZ series but the BAR seems to dislike manual transmissions being bolted to them.

2Poor2Buy

Kahn...
You are quite right in so many ways. The most reasonable and logical solution would be one that starts with either the chassis or the full drivetrain, and looks for the most suitable of the opposite. If the body mods avoid all engine/transmission/suspension mods to be more straightforward (and I'd certainly add a rollcage to such, both for safety and as primary structure so body is not expected to transfer loads) then it makes good sense - especially for someone who happens to weld. For me, I suppose it is a pipe dream... unless I could get the framework done within budget... $5K?

Good suspension donor for the 240Z would be something that does really well on the skidpad: 300ZX, 350Z..? And Nissan die-hards would like seeing a late-model Nissan drivetrain, (potentially easier to get rid of at a later time if I ever tired of the car)

All dreaming aside, here's a conservative timeline for me:

1. Drive this Integra into the ground, or at least until I can replace it.
2. While driving this Integra, find a shed to use and build up a reasonable car to keep a few years or so (SC300 5-speed, 240SX) perhaps one that someone already dumped a lot of money in, but now must be sorted. Such cars do go on sale for a fraction of their value. Nearby examples in the last month: a clean SC300 5-speed that sold for $2K with no engine, an S14 240SX built-up years ago but mysteriously will not run after a clutch change, a completely sorted S14 240SX that is selling for a fraction of what was put into it: $6800. The first two went cheap (probably after sitting in a garage for a long time and a "significant other" demanded it's removal) and primarily involve an engine swap, tranny pull, and wiring debugging. The third would work as-is, but no doubt require some more sorting over time.

3. When the price drops get something like a Lexus IS300, Evo, WRX STi, or if I wait until my dog's time is up (that's hard to write) and don't get another giant, build or buy a roadster (MR2, MRS, S2000).

As to a 240Z project, there's a well documented following of the Chevy small block transplant, and it has been done a million times. Get a project at any level of completion or start from scratch, and switch it to LS1 (LS2?)/T56, and potentially a complete suspension swap. For that matter, people in CA tried and failed to get the 25 year SMOG rule reinstated in 2012, so it may go through some day. Even if they pass a 30 year exemption in 2014, it would make a 1984 Supra MkII smog exempt, along with many other suitable donors.

MDSC

iTrader: (3)

you can buy a fully swaped r154 2jzgte sc now days for under 10k, most likely come with coilovers and wheels. your 7k estimate of a fully gone trough sc is far from realistic. My main question would be why in a world would you consider SC for autocrossing? its totally pointless its like trying to autocross an Fbody, people do it sure but they arent any good at it.

2Poor2Buy

You are absoltely right. That was my original intent, but see it isn't available. A project like the 2332lb Volvo bodied SC300 might work, but also isn't necessarily available. Maybe a better explanation would be:
Throw around recklessly at all speeds up to 80mph without losing control!
I was 'drifting' since the 1980's, so if you prefer, consider me an amateur drifter. I like a car I can really throw around, and not have to fix every week. (My MGB sat more often than it drove by maybe 10:1)

I'd also like the insurance to screw up and not pay for it with my life. Wrecking in this Integra is best to be avoided.

Autocross, as in SCCA SOLOII? Yes, that's a goal, but not with an SC.
Thrash around the canyons with blind corners in the mountains around here, while missing any deer that jump out randomly? Maybe that isn't called autocross, but the requirements are similar.

The road to my last house (about 20 miles from here) ended up with so many plastic flower bouquets and crosses that it looked like a graveyard or church. [two lane roads with one-lane bridges, no barriers, slow drivers, fast drivers, logging trucks, tractors, deer, black ice, ice in certain spots when roads should all be clear, quick weather changes, fallen trees, rockslides, stuff that falls out of trucks (a split log blew out a tire on me in the dark - at least I guess that's what it was)... the list goes on; not to mention that traffic is usually so low nobody might find you - one car that went off a mountainside (with driver's body) took six months to find. Fatalities per mile are quite high]

BTW: fully swaped r154 2jzgte sc now days for under 10k
That's awesome, but CA law would never let that car on the road. Stupid laws, I know, but that's what I have to deal with.

MDSC

iTrader: (3)

swapping vvti 1uz into a non vvti body requires a lot of work, it has been mentioned previously and many times that you might as well get a donor wrecked vvti 1uz if you want to swap it over its not as easy as just throwing a motor in it

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

^^ I'd have to say this is pertinent as well. You CAN autocross an SC and you definitely can make the big car change direction quickly but the chassis is more prone to bravura than precision direction changes in the least amount of time possible. It is a great car and I love mine but MDSC is correct: there are better platforms to be the most competitive autocrosser. I bought mine for many of the reasons you did except that I required rear seats and a decent trunk to haul film equipment for work. The Pontiac GTO fit the bill but I hated the way it drove and loved the way the SC felt. Neither were autocross considerations despite their chassis potential or in the case of the GTO, out of the box power to weight ratio and tuneability.

I don't think you should adhere yourself to a timeline for something like this. It's good to have a goal car in mind and keep mentally reminding yourself how much you want one and how you can actually get/build it but beyond that I don't feel a timeline helps in this case.

For now you solved your main problem: transportation that isn't an appliance. The Integra does that. Good.

You can modify the hell out of many of the chassis you have mentioned but there is something to be said about picking the right one for your style/needs that won't immediately require frame cutting and/or gutting. A 240Z is a very different car from an SC and an MR2 Spyder is still a very different car from either of those.

You've become very familiar with all the generally supported cars and their potential given limitless budgets. Now I think you need to truly ask yourself which one actually means the most to you and which really suits you given how you'll be using it. I know you haven't fallen in love with the Integra you bought but it's a good car and it helps you NOW.

Personally, I wasn't even looking into older cars three years ago other than a classic Mustang that I truly wanted to buy but which didn't run. It was the exact same spec as my old one and I have for years wished to find my old car. I nearly spent most of my budget on a non-running but complete car that needed a mountain of work. I sat in it for twenty minutes and made a very tough decision not to buy because I simply could not afford to restore it at the time and I needed a running car. If I had a simple runabout Integra at the time I might have bought it after all.

Nonetheless, I was looking at newer cars but between a few disappointing me in test drives and a couple of near purchases that didn't happen due to an inflated dealer asking price (after I offered cash in hand for the advertised price on one car in particular) I found this SC because it met my criteria and put a smile on my face. I wasn't looking to get into a twenty year old car but I did because the chassis was reliable, in good used condition cosmetically and structurally, and I knew I could convert it mechanically into a Supra if I wished to keep it. But I knew I was buying a car I wasn't going into competition with. At least that was and still is my intention, despite the many fine examples of high horsepower SC's.

My point is that I think you need to just find the right car now that you don't have to worry about basic transportation. If it's an SC 5-speed then wonderful. If it's something else, all the merrier. This really does come down to which car fits you best, however, because you're throwing around some very interesting and cool project ideas but they are going to become very expensive and involved faster than you may realize (and you mentioned you don't have garage workspace at this time) and all of them are based on RE-building the perfect car. And you can do that, certainly, but not when you're still highly concerned with such modest and tight budgets.

Take a step back. Take your time. Look at all of these cars again and look at their strengths and weaknesses (including your limitations as to swap potential) and see which one(s) truly speak to you. The car's specs can be exactly what you want on paper but you may have a very different impression when test driving it. If I had bought a car totally based on the specs on paper alone (and believe me, my criteria was and still is pretty narrow given the sea of FWD Camrys today) I'd have left a GM dealer with a killer deal on a purple Pontiac GTO 6-speed with only 50k on the odo depsite my feeling that it handled like a brick.

Paper criteria are good for weeding out the cars you pretty much don't need to bother with at all. From there, you need to actually see a car in person to understand if it does what you need and want. Most importantly, it should truly give you a passionate rush to drive it. My SC feels like that to me every time I get in it after having modified it a lot. It even looks stockish and has a full interior. It's not actually my favorite car in the entire world nor is it the best chassis available for racing but that is also subjective. I get in the car I've set up with some subtle changes and it puts a big smile on my face.

See what I mean?

Figure out just what kind of racing you want to class in with your next car. That is going to determine a lot of things. Beyond that, find a car that fits your needs and also speaks to you. All the analysis in the world isn't going to find that for you. The test drive really is the great subjective equalizer.

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

That's a mean average value for them, yes, but that isn't for a full USDM 2JZGTE swapped car that will pass smog. Those will sell for $12k at the lowest with issues and average of $15k or slightly more when totally sorted. Then again, you almost never hear of them let alone see such a car for sale because of the depressed SC market, comparison to Supra pricing and localized need (Cali and few other states) for an engine visual inspection.

Having been in the same boat, I feel you on that. The visual inspection portion is unnecessary hardship from the state but I put more blame on Toyota for not offering the SC with its 1JZ originally and especially Mercedes-Benz and Cadillac for making such a stink about superior products being imported into the USA that surpass the quality and value of their own offerings.

Sean Morris went into some detail about this and really, if you've ever wondered why we never got the Skyline GT-R other than retooling for LHD and Nissan's own bullish pride, not to mention any other car less than 25 years old... it's the quelling of market competition via exclusive control of what can come into said market even by private sale. Making the fuel economy oriented V8 engine the high performance offering in US SC's had a lot to do with compromising the car so that the other players would be happy with the then-new upstart Lexus. The perception of turbocharged engines was different then but I doubt that was the main reason. They had already done enough damage with the LS400 sedan. Equally as stupid as the Cali BAR rules but it is what is.

wanganstyl

iTrader: (5)

Realistically speaking it sounds like you want a bmw.

Bmw's are lightweight compared to jzz30/jza80 chassis platform
Bmw's are common and often avail in manual transmission:

Getrag makes most of them also and replacement units are dirt cheap.
Zf transmissions are also excellent and really really inexpensive; a bmw gearbox would be a huge upgrade for r154: the 6 speed units are more modern than the antique v160/161 and incredibly strong

Also less than half the cost: I put a 6 speed getrag 2006 gearbox in my 1987 e30 for about $1600 all done.

Bmw's are very safe for accidents/crash impact
Bmw's also come with LSD often: many mundane 325/328's are equipped with Motorsports clutch LSD units.

You can buy the entire bmw for the price of a trd LSD for sc300 ($1000-$1500)
And they handle much better at mountain use, autocross, track lap time use.

One can even transplant directly a 2jzgte into said bmw; any 3 series will take it happily.

E30 and e36 seems to be in the more realistic part of your budget for cars

Honestly speaking it it was a competitive auto cross; I'd put money that I could hustle a integra around an auto cross course than my all built up sc300 twin turbo bpu with the laundry list of goods.

Jzz30 body is great to freeway race at 140mph++
Jzz30 body is terrible in twisty mountain conditions or autocross: it's not the design or intent.

A 240hp 100% stock e36 m3 will smoke a 320hp bpu++ sc300 with supra everything; in all Motorsports applications besides Texas mile or drag racing. How do I know? I've had a pile of them; with 240 Hp and my crappy driving the stock m3 put down 1:50@laguna Seca with a passenger timing

2Poor2Buy

First, at this point I'm just musing. I may in fact buy a SC300 5-speed, and do the usual modifications. Nothing strange.

How's this for an odd idea (consistent with the "Supra from SC" plan):
Chop an SC body:
shorten wheelbase to match a Supra MkIV (4.5 inches) or even more if there's any advantage
move rear panels forward maybe 12" losing the rear seats
add rear "builk-head" tube support at towers, so unibody behind that point is not needed for torsional rigidity.
Chop trunk floor as needed, install fuel cell down low, move trunk partition forward so spare fits above fuel cell on flat floor.
Alternatively: install rear body of a hatchback to basically resemble Supra.

Put great effort into correcting weight bias, while shedding weight overall. How? This is the hard part. Maybe use donor hatchback that has a lower roofline to use a lighter windshield and lighter doors.

This (not very serious) idea is inspired by the Volvo bodied SC, but only involves body work.

My questions so far have been sincere, this is just musing.

wanganstyl

iTrader: (5)

What about put that effort into earning/saving cash and buy yourself a supra mk4? They are cheap cars nowadays, not really as in demand as in the 1fast1furryous days.

2Poor2Buy

Hi again Wanganstyl,
Okay you make two seriously good points.
1. BMW M3 (or another?): suppose I buy one with a destroyed engine, in need of brakes and suspension work, with other failures due to heavy use. How much will that car cost me to bring back to stock or even better than stock condition, mechanically only?
2. The Integra did win some awards, and is a fun little Go-Kart. I have a base (RS) model with high miles, and have considered a Frankenstein engine (B20 crank & rods, high compression forged pistons, maybe B18C1 head with VTEC - keeping original head for smog inspections) with modified S80 tranny (performance clutch, low 1,2,3, moderate 4th, long 5th, Quaiffe (sp?) LSD), and common coil-over suspension. Maybe a bolt-in roll-cage as this car is a death trap. Weight savings are even available. My current beater is perfect to look at, but not long before it needs engine, transmission, and would need suspension improvements to be competitive.

Which of these would cost less (a worn out BMW M3, or this worn out "but pretty" 97 Acura Integra) to take autocrossing?

There's a strange dynamic I didn't realize until I bought this Integra: all the ricers want the upgrades, so the prices are artificially inflated compared to the value of the rare parts.

I'm a Toyota guy, but Toyota doesn't have any autocross cars in my price-range at this time. I'm interested in your suggestions. I'd also consider an S14 240SX - stuck with low power KA24DE but great engine for thrashing on, and great platform for autocross.

wanganstyl

iTrader: (5)

Don't mod the integra; drive it as is and learn how to drive.
Compete in stock class; if you are serious and skilled the car is plenty faster than the driver.

I competed seriously in autocross for a few years before I caught the track bug; fast laps is all driver-

If a built integra is desired Honda makes one better than anyone can build: it's called integra type r. Will cost more to build than to buy; don't bother.

Race the integra bone stock and see if you can improve times- this is the goal of racing to compete against yourself- there is always time left on the table from improving skills.

Buy a complete running car that is in your budget.
M3 is never budget; so don't go there.

Replacing a dead m3 engine is best done by buying another m3!

If budget is low buy a 325; it's honestly not much different than a m3- one can purchase a complete running e36 325 with 5 speed or 328 5 speed for $1500 in fair cosmetic and good running shape.
You can easily budget mod it with easily avail junkyard parts and stroke the engine to 3000cc easily if it needs repair later

Don't get one with bad engine, buy one with bad automatic or needing a fender/door. You can probably buy a dying auto 325/ 328i for $800 and limp it until you collect the parts from pick n pull to swap it to manual for dirt.
Dying auto 328i will also have the least thrashed engine- the 2800cc bmw dohc6 can take 800rwhp of boost just like a 2jz can- but the bmw Ecu can be fully remapped for turbo: Toyota Ecu cannot so the costs of boosting to high levels is much more due to need of standalone. They also all have vanos which is honestly more advanced than vvti: great for spooling a turbo as well as increasing torque curve and mpg around town.

In the Bay Area one can also come across high mileage good running models with one single fatal flaw that makes the value drop high- I e broken 3rd gear or dead clutch etc etc. Add sweat equity and some replacement parts ordered online and you can have a great car on a very low budget.

Bmw engines are great and economical to run; the original engine/gearbox in my daily driver 1992 525i will hit 300k miles soon; it wore out the diff bearings so I took the opportunity to build a custom lower ratio LSD with 80% high lock center section; replacing the bearings and bearing races was fun for me.

I bought my daily driver for $1500 with a dying diff; I would have removed the open for a LSD regardless so it was a non factor to my purchase. Car came with a folder of a decade worth of records and some very nice parts also (ground control Coilovers with Koni adjustable dampers), a decent set of wheels (and the stock wheels), euro lamps/hid conversion and the best part? The interior is lovely: bmw stock BarcaLounger for freeway use