SC300/400 owners ... are you still buying premium gas for your car?
08-19-11, 10:00 PM
#31
What do you think happens when you run 87? Do you think the ECU just happily pulls timing and does nothing else? No, it will dump fuel to compensate for the increase in EGT, etc.
And no, the stock sensor is garbage, and the stock location is not exactly the best regardless. Unless you're monitoring all 8 cylinders you can never give any conclusive evidence as to what was going on, only a general blanket statement.
And no, the stock sensor is garbage, and the stock location is not exactly the best regardless. Unless you're monitoring all 8 cylinders you can never give any conclusive evidence as to what was going on, only a general blanket statement.
Look up exactly what a Vi-pec knock amp does before you go off half cocked and start an argument with no base as it does not use the stock knock sensor only the stock location to screw in the knock amp.
If its good enough to detect knock on our 1,100+ whp race 2.0 4g63 then it can for sure do the job on this crappy 170whp 1uzfe that won't even get out of it's own way.
Why are we even arguing about petty stuff? Pointless if you ask me.
08-19-11, 10:07 PM
#32
Pole Position
speaking of gas..
do you guys try and use the 91, 93 etc with or without the 10% ethanol?
and those of you that end up with 20% ethanol or mix with e85 for whatever reason..
do you notice your fuel guage acting a bit wonky??
the fuel guage for me has perfect resolution with 100% gasoline.. but with any ethanol mixture it seems to not be so accurate.. and anything more than 10% ethanol im lukcy to know how much gas i have.. although i end up doing 600+ miles per tank easily.
** i only use the premium.. 94 here in canada but 91 seems to be the highest for most of the states i travel through**
do you guys try and use the 91, 93 etc with or without the 10% ethanol?
and those of you that end up with 20% ethanol or mix with e85 for whatever reason..
do you notice your fuel guage acting a bit wonky??
the fuel guage for me has perfect resolution with 100% gasoline.. but with any ethanol mixture it seems to not be so accurate.. and anything more than 10% ethanol im lukcy to know how much gas i have.. although i end up doing 600+ miles per tank easily.
** i only use the premium.. 94 here in canada but 91 seems to be the highest for most of the states i travel through**
08-19-11, 10:10 PM
#34
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#1 - You seriously contradict your self, you say you tune high hp cars and you know what you're talking about yet two months ago, you ask the almost exact same question as the OP? So which is it? You know your stuff or you (obviously) don't.
Yes, cylinder pressure is just as important as EGT's do effect such a thing, but I guess since you tune high horsepower drag cars you know this.
#2 - 4G63 - as in a four cylinder. I'm quite aware of what an aftermarket knock detection system is I can tell you, that any real drag racer with high hp on the drag strip will not use just one mic in the stock location, they will mic out every single piston (oh, and you can ask David Buscher, since we're on 4G63 setups if he uses a single Mic setup).
As far as arguing, I'm sick of seeing some of the dumb *** posts that people post on here that are wrong and mis-informed only to further spread misinformation later on.
There is a huge difference between paying someone to build and tune a high hp car and doing everything from start to finish your self.
Yes, cylinder pressure is just as important as EGT's do effect such a thing, but I guess since you tune high horsepower drag cars you know this.
#2 - 4G63 - as in a four cylinder. I'm quite aware of what an aftermarket knock detection system is I can tell you, that any real drag racer with high hp on the drag strip will not use just one mic in the stock location, they will mic out every single piston (oh, and you can ask David Buscher, since we're on 4G63 setups if he uses a single Mic setup).
As far as arguing, I'm sick of seeing some of the dumb *** posts that people post on here that are wrong and mis-informed only to further spread misinformation later on.
There is a huge difference between paying someone to build and tune a high hp car and doing everything from start to finish your self.
08-19-11, 10:24 PM
#35
#1 - You seriously contradict your self, you say you tune high hp cars and you know what you're talking about yet two months ago, you ask the almost exact same question as the OP? So which is it? You know your stuff or you (obviously) don't.
Yes, cylinder pressure is just as important as EGT's do effect such a thing, but I guess since you tune high horsepower drag cars you know this.
#2 - 4G63 - as in a four cylinder. I'm quite aware of what an aftermarket knock detection system is I can tell you, that any real drag racer with high hp on the drag strip will not use just one mic in the stock location, they will mic out every single piston (oh, and you can ask David Buscher, since we're on 4G63 setups if he uses a single Mic setup).
As far as arguing, I'm sick of seeing some of the dumb *** posts that people post on here that are wrong and mis-informed only to further spread misinformation later on.
There is a huge difference between paying someone to build and tune a high hp car and doing everything from start to finish your self.
Yes, cylinder pressure is just as important as EGT's do effect such a thing, but I guess since you tune high horsepower drag cars you know this.
#2 - 4G63 - as in a four cylinder. I'm quite aware of what an aftermarket knock detection system is I can tell you, that any real drag racer with high hp on the drag strip will not use just one mic in the stock location, they will mic out every single piston (oh, and you can ask David Buscher, since we're on 4G63 setups if he uses a single Mic setup).
As far as arguing, I'm sick of seeing some of the dumb *** posts that people post on here that are wrong and mis-informed only to further spread misinformation later on.
There is a huge difference between paying someone to build and tune a high hp car and doing everything from start to finish your self.
Easy solution.
08-19-11, 10:27 PM
#36
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I'm not butt hurt, I'm just saying people don't need to answer questions if they don't know the proper answer.
My posts aren't dumb. I think you'll see if you check my past threads (unlike yours) that all of mine are informative at one point or another.
Every question I've had about electrical, etc no one has been able to answer and in turn I've had to fix my self and posted said fix on this website contributing to a better forum.
Don't worry, I call bull**** on people in person too. It's not just the interwebs.
My posts aren't dumb. I think you'll see if you check my past threads (unlike yours) that all of mine are informative at one point or another.
Every question I've had about electrical, etc no one has been able to answer and in turn I've had to fix my self and posted said fix on this website contributing to a better forum.
Don't worry, I call bull**** on people in person too. It's not just the interwebs.
08-19-11, 10:37 PM
#37
I don't know it all but this is an area I do know a lot about so I offered an educated opinion nothing more and I started the same thread a few months ago which I was looking for feedback from others to help foarm an educated descision on what path I should take but in the end I did my own testing so I am just reporting the results although you are trying to disprove everything I say which helps nothing other than we just thread jacked the op's thread for no reason.
08-20-11, 12:54 AM
#40
haha this thread sorta made me laugh, anyway
previous owner of my car always ran reg cheapest gas he could find, i started 93 (from speedway) after i got it, and it pissed me off lol, cuz after i filled 93 it started to idle funny when i decided to experiment and used cheapo gas it seemed to run fine (made no sense to me) but i still run 93 anyway just because its wht lexus said to do and it gives me a peace of mind
previous owner of my car always ran reg cheapest gas he could find, i started 93 (from speedway) after i got it, and it pissed me off lol, cuz after i filled 93 it started to idle funny when i decided to experiment and used cheapo gas it seemed to run fine (made no sense to me) but i still run 93 anyway just because its wht lexus said to do and it gives me a peace of mind
08-21-11, 03:43 PM
#42
This to me, is wrong (sort of anyways) because people will not understand it. Yes, your motor will pull timing (to a certain extent) when knocking occurs but there are many more variables that happen for a car that is designed, from the factory, to run higher octane gas.
AIT, etc all play a role in the octane of gas (or pre-detonation), if it's hot outside and you run a lower grade gasoline that has more chance of pre-detonation you'll just enable it to do so, lowering power, gas mileage, and throttle response and potentially flooding your intake path and head with carbon (dumping fuel is a no-no).
EGT's can also go up when running a lower grade octane gas that's on the verge of detonating, but you won't hear anything, and when your EGR recycles hotter-than-normal gas/carbon guess what happens? Carbon Soot Yay!
You never, ever, ever want to depend on your car pulling timing as a sign of oops I should have put what octane gas my car was made for in there.
Both the 1UZ and 2JZ are high compression motors in N/A form, and are advanced ignition timing wise, from the factory.
If you're running an aftermarket ECU, have a EGT probe on each cylinder, and the ability modify all sensor (AIT, etc) then sure, you can toy with that, but until then is the $0.20 a gallon really worth the long term ability of your motor and components inside it?
And for the people that are worried about price, stop buying cigarettes once a week, or stop drinking that beer once a week. There are plenty of areas you could cut down to make sure your mode of transportation and fun stays on the road longer.
AIT, etc all play a role in the octane of gas (or pre-detonation), if it's hot outside and you run a lower grade gasoline that has more chance of pre-detonation you'll just enable it to do so, lowering power, gas mileage, and throttle response and potentially flooding your intake path and head with carbon (dumping fuel is a no-no).
EGT's can also go up when running a lower grade octane gas that's on the verge of detonating, but you won't hear anything, and when your EGR recycles hotter-than-normal gas/carbon guess what happens? Carbon Soot Yay!
You never, ever, ever want to depend on your car pulling timing as a sign of oops I should have put what octane gas my car was made for in there.
Both the 1UZ and 2JZ are high compression motors in N/A form, and are advanced ignition timing wise, from the factory.
If you're running an aftermarket ECU, have a EGT probe on each cylinder, and the ability modify all sensor (AIT, etc) then sure, you can toy with that, but until then is the $0.20 a gallon really worth the long term ability of your motor and components inside it?
And for the people that are worried about price, stop buying cigarettes once a week, or stop drinking that beer once a week. There are plenty of areas you could cut down to make sure your mode of transportation and fun stays on the road longer.
I think the difference in opinion lies in what exactly our ol' 2JZ-GE is "classified" as.
On a NA car EGT's are rarely thought about from my experiences thus far. My background is mostly road racing so I can't speak for drag guys but even the highest strung NA cars don't run EGT's. If this was a boost discussion I agree with everything you said. I myself run premium on my 1JZ.
10:1 compression is decently high but there are tons of cars out there running 10:1 NA with recommended 87 octane and more aggressive timing from the factory than ours. I've seen chevy motors detonate at 9.0:1 on premium, and I've seen 11:1 hondas run regular with minimal counts of knock. Sure head design has tons to do with it but I just haven't seen any reason why we in particular CAN'T run regular.
If you can point me in the direction of a thread where people have blown up or in any way damaged their NA 2JZ-GE's by running regular then I will gladly edit and take back what I said but I think its mostly overkill.
Again, I agree in the principle of what you said, just not the practice as it applies to our cars.
08-21-11, 04:26 PM
#43
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EGT's will rise when pre-detonation occurs as cylinder pressure increases. It's a fact, not a theory.
It doesn't matter what other cars run, the ECU in our pre-ODBII cars are not as technologically advanced as say a 6G75 Motor running 10.5:1. Our cars can not calculate as many variables and adjust everything on the fly to compensate.
I never said you'll BLOW UP or destroy a motor by running crap gas, I said it won't last as long due to carbon build up, however, if you continue to run a car that is pinging hard it will eventually have pretty big issues (detonation is bad, N/A or boosted, it doesn't matter).
I'm not even talking about on the drag strip or road course, the city driving is just as bad if not worse for most people in stop and go traffic on their cars.
You guys do what you want. I look at the facts, and I know from personal experience how motors react when running cheaper gas. I've torn about motors that have run below grade and they were caked with carbon right down to the valves, the pistons were covered as well, there would be no amount of Seafoam or any cleaner that would remove it without physically scrubbing everything.
It doesn't matter what other cars run, the ECU in our pre-ODBII cars are not as technologically advanced as say a 6G75 Motor running 10.5:1. Our cars can not calculate as many variables and adjust everything on the fly to compensate.
I never said you'll BLOW UP or destroy a motor by running crap gas, I said it won't last as long due to carbon build up, however, if you continue to run a car that is pinging hard it will eventually have pretty big issues (detonation is bad, N/A or boosted, it doesn't matter).
I'm not even talking about on the drag strip or road course, the city driving is just as bad if not worse for most people in stop and go traffic on their cars.
You guys do what you want. I look at the facts, and I know from personal experience how motors react when running cheaper gas. I've torn about motors that have run below grade and they were caked with carbon right down to the valves, the pistons were covered as well, there would be no amount of Seafoam or any cleaner that would remove it without physically scrubbing everything.
08-21-11, 04:33 PM
#44
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Do not forget that Lexus does allow some amount of knock cos in their design plan, this does not damage the engine. SO that can also explain why the stock knock sensor locations are not usually ideal. Some knock is ok on most Toyota engines (they have been designed to handle it well).
However that does not mean the ecu looks too kindly at it. In fact if any form of knock is detected (even the ones you cannot hear), the timing is pulled aggressively and fuel dumped in. The other issue is the ecu does not add it right back, it does so in phases so it take a lot longer to get full timing back than taking it away further screwing your gas mileage
And about pre-ignition, that's hard to detect and and most toyota ecu's do not detect it. Hence the reason boosting NA cars usually results in cracked ringlands
However that does not mean the ecu looks too kindly at it. In fact if any form of knock is detected (even the ones you cannot hear), the timing is pulled aggressively and fuel dumped in. The other issue is the ecu does not add it right back, it does so in phases so it take a lot longer to get full timing back than taking it away further screwing your gas mileage
And about pre-ignition, that's hard to detect and and most toyota ecu's do not detect it. Hence the reason boosting NA cars usually results in cracked ringlands
