520,000+ mile 97 Supra NA on original engine
05-30-16, 07:38 AM
#16
Lead Lap
Lol Acura / Honda. Ive had a couple of civics and an accord, all extremely reliable but the build quality is just not there. Its not to say they are badly built, but Toyota metallurgy/ build process seems to be far superior, especially when it comes to 90s cars
05-30-16, 09:10 AM
#18
The hinges I have to disagree with you about, t2d2. After 20+ years some of them, depending on use, may need service... but for all they are designed to do it's pretty amazing mechanical engineering.
Have the hinges done a good job of handling an exceptional load for a long time? Absolutely!
Have other cars' hinges held up better for an equally long period of time? Absolutely!
I'm more impressed by engineering that avoids problems then by engineering that creates new ones and attempts to minimize them. Call me crazy.
Who said anything about switching? Like I said, it's all about being open-minded and being able to appreciate the strengths and weaknesses of each offering. Some of you guys get so offended by the mention of imperfect engineering. That's some kind of magical buzzword around here.
05-30-16, 09:38 AM
#19
Well there is no Mazda in your sig, wouldn't you be proud to display it there?
And as someone who has been on the forum for 10 years and in the Lexus/Toyota game way before that, I can tell you the climate of this forum has changes 180 degrees in that time. Now its filled with people who bought some nasty, un-maintained, old vehicles that do nothing but cry on these forums or put these vehicles down. Not saying you're one of them, but you certainly don't seem to have anything positive to say.
Seemed like back in the day, people cared about the quality and treated the vehicles as such. This day and age, the forum is flooded with rusted, neglected cars that probably need every seal changed, yet instead the younger guys are too focused on slapping wrong sized wheels on them, messing up the camber, hacking the wheel wells, and putting air suspension on cars that actually would more benefit from a proper tune up. All the money is going onto "cool mods" when the only mods they should be doing is making sure the car is safe to drive.
I don't believe in brand loyalty, but we just happen to have 8 Toyota/Lexus products in teh family NOT because we are loyal to the brand, but because the brand has been loyal to us with the quality vehicles they produced on the market.
Just sold our old 02 Sienna that was in the family 11 years with over 250k miles for a newer 05 model. That car literally got nothing but one timing belt job, tires, and brakes. Still drove just fine. Had the vehicle since 40k miles. If the previous owner hadn't replaced the windshield and had the bozos cut the paint down to the metal, we would've still had that van but over the years that bad install lead to rust in the roof so that car had to go.
My GS430 has over 192k miles on it. Have owned it for the last 100k miles and it drives better than most new cars on the road.
This is why we keep coming back to Toyota, not because we are loyal, but because the products kick ***.
Let me ask you a question, why did you buy a Lexus in addition to your Mazda?
And as someone who has been on the forum for 10 years and in the Lexus/Toyota game way before that, I can tell you the climate of this forum has changes 180 degrees in that time. Now its filled with people who bought some nasty, un-maintained, old vehicles that do nothing but cry on these forums or put these vehicles down. Not saying you're one of them, but you certainly don't seem to have anything positive to say.
Seemed like back in the day, people cared about the quality and treated the vehicles as such. This day and age, the forum is flooded with rusted, neglected cars that probably need every seal changed, yet instead the younger guys are too focused on slapping wrong sized wheels on them, messing up the camber, hacking the wheel wells, and putting air suspension on cars that actually would more benefit from a proper tune up. All the money is going onto "cool mods" when the only mods they should be doing is making sure the car is safe to drive.
I don't believe in brand loyalty, but we just happen to have 8 Toyota/Lexus products in teh family NOT because we are loyal to the brand, but because the brand has been loyal to us with the quality vehicles they produced on the market.
Just sold our old 02 Sienna that was in the family 11 years with over 250k miles for a newer 05 model. That car literally got nothing but one timing belt job, tires, and brakes. Still drove just fine. Had the vehicle since 40k miles. If the previous owner hadn't replaced the windshield and had the bozos cut the paint down to the metal, we would've still had that van but over the years that bad install lead to rust in the roof so that car had to go.
My GS430 has over 192k miles on it. Have owned it for the last 100k miles and it drives better than most new cars on the road.
This is why we keep coming back to Toyota, not because we are loyal, but because the products kick ***.
Let me ask you a question, why did you buy a Lexus in addition to your Mazda?
05-30-16, 09:43 AM
#20
And you keep coming back to the door hinges. You have to realize the way the SC is designed. It's got some of the longest and heaviest doors you'll find on any coupe. That's the reason the hinges are so massive. If they were any less robust, the doors would sag after a couple of years. The hinge is designed to let the door not only swing out but pull out away from the car.
05-30-16, 09:57 AM
#21
And as someone who has been on the forum for 10 years and in the Lexus/Toyota game way before that, I can tell you the climate of this forum has changes 180 degrees in that time. Now its filled with people who bought some nasty, un-maintained, old vehicles that do nothing but cry on these forums or put these vehicles down. Not saying you're one of them, but you certainly don't seem to have anything positive to say.
Let me ask you a question, why did you buy a Lexus in addition to your Mazda?
And you keep coming back to the door hinges. You have to realize the way the SC is designed. It's got some of the longest and heaviest doors you'll find on any coupe. That's the reason the hinges are so massive. If they were any less robust, the doors would sag after a couple of years. The hinge is designed to let the door not only swing out but pull out away from the car.
I weighed one of the hinges recently and they're over 12 lbs each. I've read the accounts of the gram shaving orders the design/engineering team was under, but seeing stuff like that makes me question how cohesive of a vision they were operating under.
05-30-16, 10:08 AM
#25
Yes, but does that make it right? I believe they could have made it look nearly the same with a shorter door. Tough to do by us after the fact, but plenty of other cars have the desired long, sleek look without such a long, heavy door. Engineering isn't just building stuff, it's also about properly designing it. And to those people who hate it when I question the engineers: yes, I do have a history in the field.
On a related note since we're talking Toyota vs Mazda, I'm readying a RX8 driver's seat for install in the SC. It's some 35 lbs lighter than the SC seat while retaining all the same power functions and adding the heater which mine didn't come with. It's not quite as plush but is a better fit for me and much more supportive in a sporty sense. Lexus vastly over-built several aspects of these cars, and for no particularly good reason that I can see. Is nearly double the weight of a seat going to make it any safer? My butt isn't fat enough to appreciate the difference...
On a related note since we're talking Toyota vs Mazda, I'm readying a RX8 driver's seat for install in the SC. It's some 35 lbs lighter than the SC seat while retaining all the same power functions and adding the heater which mine didn't come with. It's not quite as plush but is a better fit for me and much more supportive in a sporty sense. Lexus vastly over-built several aspects of these cars, and for no particularly good reason that I can see. Is nearly double the weight of a seat going to make it any safer? My butt isn't fat enough to appreciate the difference...
05-30-16, 01:14 PM
#27
I get all that. But the question is why? Why are the doors so long? It's overkill. Design dictated engineering. I can get in and out with ease without using that extra foot of wheel well depth. Maybe in 30 years I'll need it with my walker, but until then, it's unnecessary. The articulating hinge is another example of having to add more complication (and weight) because of the excessive length. Without it, the long door would be tough to open in tight parking spaces. They did a good job of solving problems, but the problems themselves were artificially created.
I weighed one of the hinges recently and they're over 12 lbs each. I've read the accounts of the gram shaving orders the design/engineering team was under, but seeing stuff like that makes me question how cohesive of a vision they were operating under.
I weighed one of the hinges recently and they're over 12 lbs each. I've read the accounts of the gram shaving orders the design/engineering team was under, but seeing stuff like that makes me question how cohesive of a vision they were operating under.
With that being said, everybody has different opinions. It all comes down to if YOU are happy with the vehicle you drive every day.
On another note, lets try and keep this thread matching it's title.
05-30-16, 01:30 PM
#28
And you keep coming back to the door hinges. You have to realize the way the SC is designed. It's got some of the longest and heaviest doors you'll find on any coupe. That's the reason the hinges are so massive. If they were any less robust, the doors would sag after a couple of years. The hinge is designed to let the door not only swing out but pull out away from the car.
I hear ya, but I'm a believer in function over form...
...I get all that. But the question is why? Why are the doors so long? It's overkill. Design dictated engineering. I can get in and out with ease without using that extra foot of wheel well depth. Maybe in 30 years I'll need it with my walker, but until then, it's unnecessary. The articulating hinge is another example of having to add more complication (and weight) because of the excessive length. Without it, the long door would be tough to open in tight parking spaces. They did a good job of solving problems, but the problems themselves were artificially created.
I weighed one of the hinges recently and they're over 12 lbs each. I've read the accounts of the gram shaving orders the design/engineering team was under, but seeing stuff like that makes me question how cohesive of a vision they were operating under.
It usually does not happen that way... to design a car with a completely clean slate with zero constraints on the designers. In this case they came up with some very long doors and the engineers figured out how to make those doors function even in compact parting spaces. AND last 20+ years and beyond.
Other than the chassis and ability to bolt in Supra MKIV and Soarer drivetrain parts most of these cars were envisioned as form first and function second. Thankfully for us, Toyota over-engineers their functional aspects. At least they did at this time. It's pretty charming to me.
Other vehicles are way more more function over form like the Land Rover Defender (with longevity but low build quality), the Mercedes G series (longevity and high build quality), or even things like every Subaru WRX/STI and the Focus RS. Form is largely an afterthought with all of those vehicles. There are so many others to add to that list. The AM General Hummer H1 was mentioned. That's a great example: nothing BUT function (and questionable reliability).
Personally I really love the dedication the Soarer/SC team had to preserving the original prototype form in bringing that to the production model, long doors and all.
And there IS a version of the SC that has shorter doors and embraces function over form (although even it has plenty of its own form). That is the Supra MKIV.
I guess the point I am making is that most vehicles will have a balance of form and function in their design. Some do not have enough attention to the functional engineering to make them extremely reliable and long lasting but no matter the vehicle there needs to be a balance or at least an over-compensation on the engineering side. The Lexus SC is all form and a tremendous amount of over-engineering to compensate. And I think we can all call the A/C center vents an unfortunate oversight that doesn't affect the rest of the car.
I do not think there is a "perfect" vehicle in the entire world, just degrees.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 05-30-16 at 01:40 PM.
05-30-16, 01:38 PM
#29
Why do people buy cars they are not a fan of? If I think a car is ugly or has a door that is too long I just buy something else instead of still buying the pile and coming on the forum to complain about it and claiming it's some design flaw. Newsflash buddy, my car is damn near 20 years old with almost 180k on the clock and the door hinges are doing just fine thank you.
05-30-16, 02:00 PM
#30
t2d2, what you're arguing is that the Calty Design folks should never have come up with the Soarer/SC design in 1989-1990 in the first place. This is one of those cars that is rare in that it really and truly was an exercise in pure design FIRST and then had tremendous functional over-engineering applied to it once the design was 95% settled on.