2JZGE Na-T TT Ecu Mod
09-22-15, 03:44 PM
#2791
Cop doesn't change much for regular driving, more for boost brake-up issues, so no, dont complicate it more just yet.
did you try moving the tps again? move it all the way to the opposite direction, there are only 2 ways it can go, you want it in the spot it reads the lowest % or voltage.
if its still not working (not reading low enough), then someone messed with the throttle opening screw and its not letting the throttle close all the way.. do you remember what it used to idle at when the tach was working on the old ecu?
the car is running mad rich, i would guess the ecu is not reading the o2 sensor, unplug the 02 sensor from the current connector on the harness and connect it to the connector for the o2 you removed to put the wideband in. you don't need to move the actual sensor just plug it into the other connector, see if it starts working.
also unplug that 3rd o2 sensor the jdm one doesn't use it.
did you try moving the tps again? move it all the way to the opposite direction, there are only 2 ways it can go, you want it in the spot it reads the lowest % or voltage.
if its still not working (not reading low enough), then someone messed with the throttle opening screw and its not letting the throttle close all the way.. do you remember what it used to idle at when the tach was working on the old ecu?
the car is running mad rich, i would guess the ecu is not reading the o2 sensor, unplug the 02 sensor from the current connector on the harness and connect it to the connector for the o2 you removed to put the wideband in. you don't need to move the actual sensor just plug it into the other connector, see if it starts working.
also unplug that 3rd o2 sensor the jdm one doesn't use it.
09-22-15, 04:53 PM
#2792
Cop doesn't change much for regular driving, more for boost brake-up issues, so no, dont complicate it more just yet.
did you try moving the tps again? move it all the way to the opposite direction, there are only 2 ways it can go, you want it in the spot it reads the lowest % or voltage.
if its still not working (not reading low enough), then someone messed with the throttle opening screw and its not letting the throttle close all the way.. do you remember what it used to idle at when the tach was working on the old ecu?
the car is running mad rich, i would guess the ecu is not reading the o2 sensor, unplug the 02 sensor from the current connector on the harness and connect it to the connector for the o2 you removed to put the wideband in. you don't need to move the actual sensor just plug it into the other connector, see if it starts working.
also unplug that 3rd o2 sensor the jdm one doesn't use it.
did you try moving the tps again? move it all the way to the opposite direction, there are only 2 ways it can go, you want it in the spot it reads the lowest % or voltage.
if its still not working (not reading low enough), then someone messed with the throttle opening screw and its not letting the throttle close all the way.. do you remember what it used to idle at when the tach was working on the old ecu?
the car is running mad rich, i would guess the ecu is not reading the o2 sensor, unplug the 02 sensor from the current connector on the harness and connect it to the connector for the o2 you removed to put the wideband in. you don't need to move the actual sensor just plug it into the other connector, see if it starts working.
also unplug that 3rd o2 sensor the jdm one doesn't use it.
I swapped the lower runner for a OBD1 runner and I'm wondering if I accidentally damaged/unplugged the coolant temp sensor. I also had to cut/extend the shielded knock sensor wire because i couldn't remove the connector from the sensor (knock sensor wire ran through the lower runner).
I'm not gonna give up!
Last edited by joe diego; 09-23-15 at 05:33 AM.
09-23-15, 04:13 PM
#2794
Would there be any super obvious reason that an engine would misfire cold at idle but not cold under load. (or hot)
I'm still playing around with the vpc, just trying a few things before I report back.
I'm still playing around with the vpc, just trying a few things before I report back.
09-24-15, 12:49 PM
#2797
I guess I'll talking open loop only. I turned up the idle on the vpc because in open loop I'm lean and because there is no trim in open loop I'm trying to figure out where it needs to be. The open loop should be running great referencing only the coolant/maf(vpc). For whatever reason it doesn't run great in open loop which I feel like is effecting the normal driving or is related to some mid shift hesitation. That's where I'm at currently, so I'm just playing with the vpc and monitoring the system.
09-24-15, 03:00 PM
#2798
its basically the same process as the safc, yes it modifies the load signal. the ecu gets confused when it sees sudden changes in load without any rpm changes etc... pulls timing, and then starts dialing things back in. things like IACV position and other little stuff are set on first start and change slowly if there is a weather change etc.. things like tps position are set each time you start the car.
open loop changes you can make cause you wont be at WOT when you are making changes on the safc or map ecu (i hope cause that would be dangerous). idle and closed loop can mess with the ecu some, unless its a closed loop position you are not currently in, so mostly changes at idle mess with it, it tries to correct the changes and you never really know where you are at.
I kinda ballpark it off the cold start value before the o2 kicks in (around 11 afr is good), and then WOT. I do this moving the whole map up and down and the points inbetween for open loop will be close enough to run well.
if you have trouble with the the most foolproof way for a piggyback is to disconnect the o2 sensor, reset the ecu completely, and dial in the afr's manually 1.5-2 afr points above where they would be normally in all closed loop areas and idle, and for WOT dial that in exactly where you want it. have the parameters saved and connect back the o2's and reset the ecu one last time, and bingo itll act like a standalone does, run a little rich without the o2 sensor, and run stoich with it in.
if you make corrections with the o2 sensor connected, you have no real world reference the ecu is very good at adjusting, but when you blip the throttle suddenly thats open loop for a second even in a closed loop area, on rapid accell/decel o2 sensor is ignored to give it that extra fuel (its assuming the open loop value is richer) and thats how the whole thing works together.
open loop with no o2 should be like an 11 afr cold start (10.5 is ok with 550's its hard to get those that low).
driving around I shoot for a 12.5-13 afr. since there is no correction if you jab the throttle you shouldn't see a number leaner than 15, if you do increase the load in that area to get more fuel.
last is boost tune to your desire anything in the 11's is safe. closer to 12 you can pick up a hair more power.
thats how I do it at least, and the best way I know of doing it on a maf car. map cars are easier its a lot more linear so you can do the first method I said which is a shortcut off of cold start and WOT and it gets surprisingly close, but maf is not linear and you tweak it like that.
if you pull the o2 sensor and reset the ecu and the afr's aren't good and a point or 2 richer than normal, then you know the tune is off.
the ecu cannot tolerate being leaner in one spot and richer in another, or even large differences in the amount of fuel its pulling from one load area to the left, the ecu operates with the assumption that the whole open loop map is a similar amount richer than the closed loop values. the o2 swinging around when that is not the case causes the misfires. you must make sure that the o2 is always pulling fuel which means without the o2 every spot should be richer than stoich in closed loop areas. you will also get a better throttle response when its set up right.
Its pretty complicated so dont beat yourself up if it takes a couple tries. but once you follow the golden rules above about tuning with the o2 disconnected, you will have it 80% mastered.
peaople talking about only tuning open loop and not closed loop ar incorrect. there is an open loop across the whole map when the o2 isn't connected, and must be tuned cause when you bilp the throttle which happens all the time in regular driving, the ecu is only looking at open loop. the goal is that closed loop is only pulling a similar amount of fuel out of closed loop areas, which leave you free to mess with boost in open loop, cause well there is no closed loop so the o2 won't swing back due to it being dead on what you want.
my broken hand is hurting now.. lol, disconnect o2, reset, tweak to get it driving sightly rich, and itll be perfect when you connect o2 and reset.
open loop changes you can make cause you wont be at WOT when you are making changes on the safc or map ecu (i hope cause that would be dangerous). idle and closed loop can mess with the ecu some, unless its a closed loop position you are not currently in, so mostly changes at idle mess with it, it tries to correct the changes and you never really know where you are at.
I kinda ballpark it off the cold start value before the o2 kicks in (around 11 afr is good), and then WOT. I do this moving the whole map up and down and the points inbetween for open loop will be close enough to run well.
if you have trouble with the the most foolproof way for a piggyback is to disconnect the o2 sensor, reset the ecu completely, and dial in the afr's manually 1.5-2 afr points above where they would be normally in all closed loop areas and idle, and for WOT dial that in exactly where you want it. have the parameters saved and connect back the o2's and reset the ecu one last time, and bingo itll act like a standalone does, run a little rich without the o2 sensor, and run stoich with it in.
if you make corrections with the o2 sensor connected, you have no real world reference the ecu is very good at adjusting, but when you blip the throttle suddenly thats open loop for a second even in a closed loop area, on rapid accell/decel o2 sensor is ignored to give it that extra fuel (its assuming the open loop value is richer) and thats how the whole thing works together.
open loop with no o2 should be like an 11 afr cold start (10.5 is ok with 550's its hard to get those that low).
driving around I shoot for a 12.5-13 afr. since there is no correction if you jab the throttle you shouldn't see a number leaner than 15, if you do increase the load in that area to get more fuel.
last is boost tune to your desire anything in the 11's is safe. closer to 12 you can pick up a hair more power.
thats how I do it at least, and the best way I know of doing it on a maf car. map cars are easier its a lot more linear so you can do the first method I said which is a shortcut off of cold start and WOT and it gets surprisingly close, but maf is not linear and you tweak it like that.
if you pull the o2 sensor and reset the ecu and the afr's aren't good and a point or 2 richer than normal, then you know the tune is off.
the ecu cannot tolerate being leaner in one spot and richer in another, or even large differences in the amount of fuel its pulling from one load area to the left, the ecu operates with the assumption that the whole open loop map is a similar amount richer than the closed loop values. the o2 swinging around when that is not the case causes the misfires. you must make sure that the o2 is always pulling fuel which means without the o2 every spot should be richer than stoich in closed loop areas. you will also get a better throttle response when its set up right.
Its pretty complicated so dont beat yourself up if it takes a couple tries. but once you follow the golden rules above about tuning with the o2 disconnected, you will have it 80% mastered.
peaople talking about only tuning open loop and not closed loop ar incorrect. there is an open loop across the whole map when the o2 isn't connected, and must be tuned cause when you bilp the throttle which happens all the time in regular driving, the ecu is only looking at open loop. the goal is that closed loop is only pulling a similar amount of fuel out of closed loop areas, which leave you free to mess with boost in open loop, cause well there is no closed loop so the o2 won't swing back due to it being dead on what you want.
my broken hand is hurting now.. lol, disconnect o2, reset, tweak to get it driving sightly rich, and itll be perfect when you connect o2 and reset.
Last edited by Ali SC3; 09-24-15 at 03:07 PM.
09-24-15, 04:45 PM
#2799
Lol thanks Ali, sorry about your hands.
I am really lean compared to the recommended afr's. Cold (02 disconnected) Its only around 14.2-15.0. I haven't driven it like this but I would assume across the board it will also need an increase to maintain 12.5-13.0 . I'll report back again after following the method above.
I am really lean compared to the recommended afr's. Cold (02 disconnected) Its only around 14.2-15.0. I haven't driven it like this but I would assume across the board it will also need an increase to maintain 12.5-13.0 . I'll report back again after following the method above.
09-25-15, 08:29 AM
#2800
yeah that is way too lean for a cold start afr and could be causing many issues when coolant gets warmer cause it gets even leaner then and likely you o2 is richening it up when its supossed to be leaning it out, which causes misfires when you have fast throttle changes. I would say your vpc tune is off. see how hard it is to see that until you disconnect the o2 sensor?
I have never used a vpc but I have seen the ***** on the front so try and mess with those i figure that is what they do.
I have never used a vpc but I have seen the ***** on the front so try and mess with those i figure that is what they do.
09-25-15, 03:26 PM
#2801
Okay so I was able to get the open loop idle down into the 12s. I tried many settings from there but it will not stay rich when cruising. It actually goes lean when cruising like 16-17 no matter what I do. Should I try replicating this with the stock maf and disconnect the vpc temporarily?
09-25-15, 03:46 PM
#2802
sounds like you need a couple more afr points richer.
check out this guide.
http://my.prostreetonline.com/2014/10/15/tune-hks-vpc/
I would try cranking the second **** "gain" until the cruise is at least a 14 afr. where is it set at now?
if you can't get that far then I am not sure how you will tune it with the vpc where you are now, maybe thats why people also run a safc with it to be able to add/remove a little more fuel than what the vpc can do alone.
as I said I am not that familiar with the vpc, now map ecu or safc I am sure you can raise the fuel with, not sure how much the gain feature can add or remove on that vpc device, hopefully you still have some room to raise it I would max it out at this point and see what it does.
the first dial is in regards to the blipping of the throttle and adjust that later.
Dial 3 for idle only worry about that after you get the second dial "dialed" in.
If I remember right you can also get a bit more fuel by messing with the intake temp sensor, so make sure that is wired right or you have the right resistor there, if its reading warm itll pull fuel, if it reads cold you will get more fuel.
another option would be going up to 660's and then trying to pull fuel, or if you have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator you could bump up the base fuel pressure a few psi, but mess with the vpc first and let me know if you already tried maxing out the gain ****.
check out this guide.
http://my.prostreetonline.com/2014/10/15/tune-hks-vpc/
I would try cranking the second **** "gain" until the cruise is at least a 14 afr. where is it set at now?
if you can't get that far then I am not sure how you will tune it with the vpc where you are now, maybe thats why people also run a safc with it to be able to add/remove a little more fuel than what the vpc can do alone.
as I said I am not that familiar with the vpc, now map ecu or safc I am sure you can raise the fuel with, not sure how much the gain feature can add or remove on that vpc device, hopefully you still have some room to raise it I would max it out at this point and see what it does.
the first dial is in regards to the blipping of the throttle and adjust that later.
Dial 3 for idle only worry about that after you get the second dial "dialed" in.
If I remember right you can also get a bit more fuel by messing with the intake temp sensor, so make sure that is wired right or you have the right resistor there, if its reading warm itll pull fuel, if it reads cold you will get more fuel.
another option would be going up to 660's and then trying to pull fuel, or if you have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator you could bump up the base fuel pressure a few psi, but mess with the vpc first and let me know if you already tried maxing out the gain ****.
Last edited by Ali SC3; 09-25-15 at 03:50 PM.
09-26-15, 01:54 PM
#2803
No luck with the gain ****, all it did was richen the idle a small amount. As far as the temp sensor I have the vpc one hooked up and for the normal one I'm using the maf temp sensor instead of a fixed resistor value.
Still no matter what mode I'm in (open of closed) if im just parked and try to hold 2000rpm it just goes full lean and misfires. I'll probably play around with it some more tomorrow.
Still no matter what mode I'm in (open of closed) if im just parked and try to hold 2000rpm it just goes full lean and misfires. I'll probably play around with it some more tomorrow.
09-26-15, 04:00 PM
#2804
Where I live at I don't have access to a tuner or a shop that specializes in 2JZ or any imports really. There are alot of domestic guys locally and one dyno but I wouldn't trust them to setup AEM on my mutt of a setup, they would have no clue.
So when I went AEM, like all my cars, I tried to learn it myself and tune myself. I ran into alot of issues, electrical gremlins and weird voltage issues. This was probably a combination of the NA-T setup and having different parts thrown together like the 7mCPS versus the stock distributor for the cam sensor, is300 coil on plug, etc etc. I got it to the point where the car would start in warm weather and drive fairly decent but it didn't run 100%, the tune was finicky and I was in over my head with the setup and learning AEM. I couldn't enjoy the car, cold starts it refused to start and I was chasing my tail in problems.
The GTE ecu is just plain reliable. The car starts, every time with ease and I never have to worry about not being able to jump in and enjoy it.
I see the value now in having a shop tune / setup a EMS ecu because when you have problems (and you will), they will know or have some indication as to what is causing it. The stock GTE ecu more than covers the power levels I wanted to achieve and when that day comes (if it comes) that I want more power I will more than likely have a shop setup Proefi and never look back.
Oh and the AEM Forums are useless, there is no support. I received more help from the genuine guys on the supraforums and clublexus like Ali Sc3 while trying to set the ECU up. This was the worst part as you felt helpless. When I used to run DSMLink in the talon the ecmlink forums were amazing in support. The developers are passionate about their product and making sure their customers receive the help they need. The MAPECU forums remind me alot of the DSMlink boards as well. If you create an account and login there you will find all kinds of crazy thrown together setups that people are trying to tune and the developers are trying their best to problem solve and give some help or at least guidance.
So when I went AEM, like all my cars, I tried to learn it myself and tune myself. I ran into alot of issues, electrical gremlins and weird voltage issues. This was probably a combination of the NA-T setup and having different parts thrown together like the 7mCPS versus the stock distributor for the cam sensor, is300 coil on plug, etc etc. I got it to the point where the car would start in warm weather and drive fairly decent but it didn't run 100%, the tune was finicky and I was in over my head with the setup and learning AEM. I couldn't enjoy the car, cold starts it refused to start and I was chasing my tail in problems.
The GTE ecu is just plain reliable. The car starts, every time with ease and I never have to worry about not being able to jump in and enjoy it.
I see the value now in having a shop tune / setup a EMS ecu because when you have problems (and you will), they will know or have some indication as to what is causing it. The stock GTE ecu more than covers the power levels I wanted to achieve and when that day comes (if it comes) that I want more power I will more than likely have a shop setup Proefi and never look back.
Oh and the AEM Forums are useless, there is no support. I received more help from the genuine guys on the supraforums and clublexus like Ali Sc3 while trying to set the ECU up. This was the worst part as you felt helpless. When I used to run DSMLink in the talon the ecmlink forums were amazing in support. The developers are passionate about their product and making sure their customers receive the help they need. The MAPECU forums remind me alot of the DSMlink boards as well. If you create an account and login there you will find all kinds of crazy thrown together setups that people are trying to tune and the developers are trying their best to problem solve and give some help or at least guidance.
Are you Spooln4 on Youtube?
Last edited by Studiogeek; 09-26-15 at 04:24 PM.
09-26-15, 04:20 PM
#2805
Hi PSI said it pretty well, its just a ton of work to get a standalone to run like a stock car, mst tuners achieve in my book 80% of a full tune if you are lucky on the first round, and every round of tuning costs $$ if you can't do it yourself. I learnt how to do it and became quite proficient at it, but the limitations of a standalone designed to run every vehicle means there will be limitations cause in the cold it does not pick up the stock n/a crank sensor very well. most of the time not only does it not start but the ecu injects fuel everytime you try so you also flood the motor and that means holding the throttle down to clear out the fuel, and in 30-40 degree weather that almost always means by now your starter has weakened your battery so far that there is no chance of it picking up the crank sensor, cause the higher the battery voltage the stronger the signal, so you can see after the first no start you are pretty much boned. I would only run it if you can oput a batter tender on it and then you have to have that initial crank pulse of fuel perfectly tuned to start in cold weather, too little it wont fire off, too much you flood out.
I carried my laptop to the car every day of winter so I could tweak it, it was parked outside and I was miserable every morning, flagging down people to jumpstart me after I dropper $1200 on the ecu and another $600 for a first tune that never started my car in the winter. by the end I had it starting decent, but there were always some idle issues or deceleration issues (think going down a parking garage slowly it would buck 50% of the time instead of going smooth. I eventually learned to tweak the decel fuel cut points and decel fuel amounts to get it better, as well as dropping timing in those lower load cells so I wasnt embarressed driving throught the parking garage at work..
the only things that worked great was wide open throttle, it was always perfect, and regular driving was pretty spot on, but a well trained monkey can get that stuff running right and is basically what most tuners focus on. boost control and boost cut worked great also, as well as o2 correction, no complaints there. if it idles they move past that.. and the next season it wont idle right if it was no set up with wide parameters. you have to tune the amount off it is, how fast it corrects (so it doesnt swing constantly) and how much timing vs error you want (I zero this out most do not, n/a motors do not like timing swings at higher compression).
most of the time they load up a gte map they tuned on someone elses car, and tweak it to work. the thing is all the small stuff is very different between the 2, they pull different amounts of vacuum at idle (affects decel fuel cut drastically among other things), basically you need a very very good tuner to get even close to a factory tune. there are only a couple people I know that can do it right, and they are in high demand.
you can kinda see that its alot of stuff to learn, and you need a laptop and some basic knowledge of adjusting idle/starting the car or you risk being stuck until the tuner can fix it .. again more $$ which is good for the tuner.
thats why I said eff it and researched how to use a gte ecu.
before me there was only 1 person to do it and its linked on page 1 on club-nat.
captdale in Hawaii did it cause there as no good tuners there, but he went FFIM and full gte ignition, which is why my first setup I installed a FFIM and gte coils (even though I had vvti coils in I didn't know for sure they would work), and then tweaked it from there using my vvti coil setup which allows the stock intake to stay on.
I carried my laptop to the car every day of winter so I could tweak it, it was parked outside and I was miserable every morning, flagging down people to jumpstart me after I dropper $1200 on the ecu and another $600 for a first tune that never started my car in the winter. by the end I had it starting decent, but there were always some idle issues or deceleration issues (think going down a parking garage slowly it would buck 50% of the time instead of going smooth. I eventually learned to tweak the decel fuel cut points and decel fuel amounts to get it better, as well as dropping timing in those lower load cells so I wasnt embarressed driving throught the parking garage at work..
the only things that worked great was wide open throttle, it was always perfect, and regular driving was pretty spot on, but a well trained monkey can get that stuff running right and is basically what most tuners focus on. boost control and boost cut worked great also, as well as o2 correction, no complaints there. if it idles they move past that.. and the next season it wont idle right if it was no set up with wide parameters. you have to tune the amount off it is, how fast it corrects (so it doesnt swing constantly) and how much timing vs error you want (I zero this out most do not, n/a motors do not like timing swings at higher compression).
most of the time they load up a gte map they tuned on someone elses car, and tweak it to work. the thing is all the small stuff is very different between the 2, they pull different amounts of vacuum at idle (affects decel fuel cut drastically among other things), basically you need a very very good tuner to get even close to a factory tune. there are only a couple people I know that can do it right, and they are in high demand.
you can kinda see that its alot of stuff to learn, and you need a laptop and some basic knowledge of adjusting idle/starting the car or you risk being stuck until the tuner can fix it .. again more $$ which is good for the tuner.
thats why I said eff it and researched how to use a gte ecu.
before me there was only 1 person to do it and its linked on page 1 on club-nat.
captdale in Hawaii did it cause there as no good tuners there, but he went FFIM and full gte ignition, which is why my first setup I installed a FFIM and gte coils (even though I had vvti coils in I didn't know for sure they would work), and then tweaked it from there using my vvti coil setup which allows the stock intake to stay on.
Loads of knowledge dropped between these two answers. Thank you both so much
.My wallet is happy!
No AEM for me. It is way over my head. I need the TT looking over me and chastising and correcting my piggyback!
I'm going to install the Mapecu3. If after a great tune, I can learn to monitor and tweak that, I will consider standalone. Being tied to another guy I pay as much as my attorney is something I'd like to avoid.
I can find good 2J tuners but none that know the TT ECU mod or the MapEcu3. I have selected two guys willing to try it.
Is there anything in particular they should know. They are also installing the MAPECU and removing the SAFC.
The wiring is going to be all different then they are used to.
It may be a great idea to make a quick briefing sheet to alert any mechanics that work on TT ECU mod cars to the crucial differences in the wiring.
Anything crucial and different in the wiring a mechanic will encounter when installing the MAPECU3?
Anyone got a great map for 550's?
Thanks!
Double appreciation for this answer with a broken hand, sorry man!
Last edited by Studiogeek; 09-27-15 at 03:43 AM.