economic math new rx350 vs 450h
04-25-13, 10:57 AM
#1
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economic math new rx350 vs 450h
Am I thinking about this right?
I can get a new rx350 for $44K and a 450H for about $52,122 for same equipment
Assumptions:
- I assume a rx350 will get 20 MPG and 450h will do 26 MPG on avg
- regular gas is $3.87 and premium $4.20 her in San Jose, Ca.
- 15k miles per year
- Rx350 will cost me .1935 per mile x 15k miles= $2902.5 per year in gas
- Rx450h will cost me .1615 per mile x 15k miles= $2423.08 per year in gas
- Delta is $479 in savings in gas with rx450h... delta in car prices $8122.. will take me 17 years for pay back... however, the rx 450h will save me in breaks
Folks... is my math flawed on pure economics?
I can get a new rx350 for $44K and a 450H for about $52,122 for same equipment
Assumptions:
- I assume a rx350 will get 20 MPG and 450h will do 26 MPG on avg
- regular gas is $3.87 and premium $4.20 her in San Jose, Ca.
- 15k miles per year
- Rx350 will cost me .1935 per mile x 15k miles= $2902.5 per year in gas
- Rx450h will cost me .1615 per mile x 15k miles= $2423.08 per year in gas
- Delta is $479 in savings in gas with rx450h... delta in car prices $8122.. will take me 17 years for pay back... however, the rx 450h will save me in breaks
Folks... is my math flawed on pure economics?
04-25-13, 11:40 AM
#2
Lexus Champion
You're forgetting about the residual value of the RX450h vs RX350. If you count it in, the delta will change.
Now, add in average interest you're paying on loans, such as a mortgage that this $8K would go to otherwise. That will create another offset. Also, the 350 is offered at lower interest rates than 450h (or mortgage), so that's another point towards 350.
Now, the 450h offers a more advanced and powerful drivetrain (hence 450 designation) and it will be more serene when you're stuck in traffic.
At the end, everything is relative. If mileage is a high factor, Prius' value can't be beat (low price/low depreciation/low fuel consumption).
RX450h does not make economical sense compared to RX350, but neither does RX350 compared to the Highlander. You can see where this is going.
Now, add in average interest you're paying on loans, such as a mortgage that this $8K would go to otherwise. That will create another offset. Also, the 350 is offered at lower interest rates than 450h (or mortgage), so that's another point towards 350.
Now, the 450h offers a more advanced and powerful drivetrain (hence 450 designation) and it will be more serene when you're stuck in traffic.
At the end, everything is relative. If mileage is a high factor, Prius' value can't be beat (low price/low depreciation/low fuel consumption).
RX450h does not make economical sense compared to RX350, but neither does RX350 compared to the Highlander. You can see where this is going.
04-25-13, 11:46 AM
#3
The math is flawed in the delta in car prices. Last I checked, the 450h includes a lot of options as standard whereas you have to add packages on the 350. It would be interesting to see an apples-to-apples comparison with configured options for a true delta.
04-25-13, 11:55 AM
#4
Moderator
Your math isn't probably too far off. Honestly, these sort of mathematic exercises can be debated a lot and have been over the years on forums such as this and in other articles I've read. I personally stopped doing it myself long ago. There are a number of subjective elements that I finally concluded I couldn't put hard numbers to, and when I decided to get a new RX450h to replace my 2006 RX400h, there was no question in my mind what I wanted to own, regardless if it pays back or not. I think you'll find some number of hybrid owners with a similar approach, especially here in California, but to your point, here's a couple things to financially consider:
-- You could add in that in California, you won't have to do smog checks with a hybrid. You're right you're likely to never put brakes on an RXh, certainly not with the same frequency as a non-hybrid.
-- MPG is also going to depend a lot on how you drive, e.g. these days, I take generally very short trips, so my hybrid never heats all the way up and I therefore average at or just a tad better than your 26MPG avg with each tank of gas -- others do a lot better than that. If you use your hybrid primiarly on the highway going 80, you'll do much much worse... I've gotten as low as 22 on a highway-only tank of gas hauling through the desert going uphill for the most part, and as good as 32 maintaining it more at 70 and coming downhill to a large degree, so there was some times the truck was effectively coasting. Many variables in MPG to consider. Read some of the other threads on MPG and see if you want to adjust your estimate some way or other based on your situation...
-- The last point I'd suggest you consider is resale value... Again, a point of debate so I won't offer my opinion of it here, but check for yourself on KBB and other sites and see if you think a hybrid may have better residual value than the 350.
Either way you go, chances are you'll love your RX as much as many of us do. Good luck with your decision.
-- You could add in that in California, you won't have to do smog checks with a hybrid. You're right you're likely to never put brakes on an RXh, certainly not with the same frequency as a non-hybrid.
-- MPG is also going to depend a lot on how you drive, e.g. these days, I take generally very short trips, so my hybrid never heats all the way up and I therefore average at or just a tad better than your 26MPG avg with each tank of gas -- others do a lot better than that. If you use your hybrid primiarly on the highway going 80, you'll do much much worse... I've gotten as low as 22 on a highway-only tank of gas hauling through the desert going uphill for the most part, and as good as 32 maintaining it more at 70 and coming downhill to a large degree, so there was some times the truck was effectively coasting. Many variables in MPG to consider. Read some of the other threads on MPG and see if you want to adjust your estimate some way or other based on your situation...
-- The last point I'd suggest you consider is resale value... Again, a point of debate so I won't offer my opinion of it here, but check for yourself on KBB and other sites and see if you think a hybrid may have better residual value than the 350.
Either way you go, chances are you'll love your RX as much as many of us do. Good luck with your decision.
04-25-13, 12:07 PM
#5
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Your math isn't probably too far off. Honestly, these sort of mathematic exercises can be debated a lot and have been over the years on forums such as this and in other articles I've read. I personally stopped doing it myself long ago. There are a number of subjective elements that I finally concluded I couldn't put hard numbers to, and when I decided to get a new RX450h to replace my 2006 RX400h, there was no question in my mind what I wanted to own, regardless if it pays back or not. I think you'll find some number of hybrid owners with a similar approach, especially here in California, but to your point, here's a couple things to financially consider:
-- You could add in that in California, you won't have to do smog checks with a hybrid. You're right you're likely to never put brakes on an RXh, certainly not with the same frequency as a non-hybrid.
-- MPG is also going to depend a lot on how you drive, e.g. these days, I take generally very short trips, so my hybrid never heats all the way up and I therefore average at or just a tad better than your 26MPG avg with each tank of gas -- others do a lot better than that. If you use your hybrid primiarly on the highway going 80, you'll do much much worse... I've gotten as low as 22 on a highway-only tank of gas hauling through the desert going uphill for the most part, and as good as 32 maintaining it more at 70 and coming downhill to a large degree, so there was some times the truck was effectively coasting. Many variables in MPG to consider. Read some of the other threads on MPG and see if you want to adjust your estimate some way or other based on your situation...
-- The last point I'd suggest you consider is resale value... Again, a point of debate so I won't offer my opinion of it here, but check for yourself on KBB and other sites and see if you think a hybrid may have better residual value than the 350.
Either way you go, chances are you'll love your RX as much as many of us do. Good luck with your decision.
-- You could add in that in California, you won't have to do smog checks with a hybrid. You're right you're likely to never put brakes on an RXh, certainly not with the same frequency as a non-hybrid.
-- MPG is also going to depend a lot on how you drive, e.g. these days, I take generally very short trips, so my hybrid never heats all the way up and I therefore average at or just a tad better than your 26MPG avg with each tank of gas -- others do a lot better than that. If you use your hybrid primiarly on the highway going 80, you'll do much much worse... I've gotten as low as 22 on a highway-only tank of gas hauling through the desert going uphill for the most part, and as good as 32 maintaining it more at 70 and coming downhill to a large degree, so there was some times the truck was effectively coasting. Many variables in MPG to consider. Read some of the other threads on MPG and see if you want to adjust your estimate some way or other based on your situation...
-- The last point I'd suggest you consider is resale value... Again, a point of debate so I won't offer my opinion of it here, but check for yourself on KBB and other sites and see if you think a hybrid may have better residual value than the 350.
Either way you go, chances are you'll love your RX as much as many of us do. Good luck with your decision.
great points! And, thank you for taking the time to share...
04-25-13, 12:08 PM
#6
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You're forgetting about the residual value of the RX450h vs RX350. If you count it in, the delta will change.
Now, add in average interest you're paying on loans, such as a mortgage that this $8K would go to otherwise. That will create another offset. Also, the 350 is offered at lower interest rates than 450h (or mortgage), so that's another point towards 350.
Now, the 450h offers a more advanced and powerful drivetrain (hence 450 designation) and it will be more serene when you're stuck in traffic.
At the end, everything is relative. If mileage is a high factor, Prius' value can't be beat (low price/low depreciation/low fuel consumption).
RX450h does not make economical sense compared to RX350, but neither does RX350 compared to the Highlander. You can see where this is going.
Now, add in average interest you're paying on loans, such as a mortgage that this $8K would go to otherwise. That will create another offset. Also, the 350 is offered at lower interest rates than 450h (or mortgage), so that's another point towards 350.
Now, the 450h offers a more advanced and powerful drivetrain (hence 450 designation) and it will be more serene when you're stuck in traffic.
At the end, everything is relative. If mileage is a high factor, Prius' value can't be beat (low price/low depreciation/low fuel consumption).
RX450h does not make economical sense compared to RX350, but neither does RX350 compared to the Highlander. You can see where this is going.
04-25-13, 12:24 PM
#7
Lexus Test Driver
Did the same calculations back in 2011 and came up with 15 yrs. to fully recover what you initially paid for.
So, the compromise was an RX 350 and a Toyota Prius.
Now with the prius C, you can even get one for less than $20,000.
On a different note, my wife is doing electric vs gas consumption mathematics because she's interested with a Tesla S. and here's what i said... Unless you're buying a prius or anything less than 20k, you will never get "even" in a 5 year period.
So, the compromise was an RX 350 and a Toyota Prius.
Now with the prius C, you can even get one for less than $20,000.
On a different note, my wife is doing electric vs gas consumption mathematics because she's interested with a Tesla S. and here's what i said... Unless you're buying a prius or anything less than 20k, you will never get "even" in a 5 year period.
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04-25-13, 10:00 PM
#8
I am in the energy conservation field, I don't own a hybrid.
Payback (seems senseless on its own merits, there used to be tax credits that helped), possible effects of strong electric and magnetic fields it subjects your body to, put aside the feel (I think 350 and 450 both ride great), maybe it has higher resale, not sure...
I would like to know, for those who keep their hybrids past the warranty...what is the added maint. cost of all the additional components in a hybrid? How much does full battery replacement cost? my buddy had a Prius, saved a few bucks on gas, after warranty expired, it required $5k battery replacement and additional repairs.... there goes any fuel savings. So more food for thought...
I will go hide under digital cover before the hybrid owners fire back :-)
Payback (seems senseless on its own merits, there used to be tax credits that helped), possible effects of strong electric and magnetic fields it subjects your body to, put aside the feel (I think 350 and 450 both ride great), maybe it has higher resale, not sure...
I would like to know, for those who keep their hybrids past the warranty...what is the added maint. cost of all the additional components in a hybrid? How much does full battery replacement cost? my buddy had a Prius, saved a few bucks on gas, after warranty expired, it required $5k battery replacement and additional repairs.... there goes any fuel savings. So more food for thought...
I will go hide under digital cover before the hybrid owners fire back :-)
Last edited by Dolphin; 04-26-13 at 06:18 AM.
04-25-13, 11:41 PM
#9
Lexus Test Driver
@Dolphin, $5,000 for a battery. That's a myth. OR Your friend have 2 prii then.
Kidding aside, it's 2,500 to replace the battery, and there are thousands of the first generation toyota prius running on the highway. I just saw 2 at the 405 a few hours ago. I Bet they still have the original Battery.
I suggest you visit forums of prius owners and you'll be surprised on how many have "actually"changed their batteries. Some drivers even have more than 150,000 miles om their first gen prius.
Kidding aside, it's 2,500 to replace the battery, and there are thousands of the first generation toyota prius running on the highway. I just saw 2 at the 405 a few hours ago. I Bet they still have the original Battery.
I suggest you visit forums of prius owners and you'll be surprised on how many have "actually"changed their batteries. Some drivers even have more than 150,000 miles om their first gen prius.
04-26-13, 05:47 AM
#11
Lexus Test Driver
All hybrid vehicles now have warranty of battery pack for 100,000 miles or 10 years per federal regulation. I almost wanted a hybrid. But to me, for now it is not worth it.
The next hybrid if i decide to purchase would be FCV. Fuel Cell Vehicle hybrid. It only need Hydrogen, and it post production is water only, there are no other by products. Toyota will have one on the road in 2015 as that is their original plan. I doubt the Hydrogen refueling infrastructure will be readily available at any gas station. Therefore, Toyota announced at 2020 the FCV will be affordable. This will be 7 years down the road, where my Rx now will hold up just fine
I honestly believe in FCV. At least, extracting Hydrogen from water is no longer an Issue.
The next hybrid if i decide to purchase would be FCV. Fuel Cell Vehicle hybrid. It only need Hydrogen, and it post production is water only, there are no other by products. Toyota will have one on the road in 2015 as that is their original plan. I doubt the Hydrogen refueling infrastructure will be readily available at any gas station. Therefore, Toyota announced at 2020 the FCV will be affordable. This will be 7 years down the road, where my Rx now will hold up just fine
I honestly believe in FCV. At least, extracting Hydrogen from water is no longer an Issue.
04-26-13, 06:17 AM
#12
Interesting info on hybrids, warranties, etc. The Prius I mentioned obviously needed other repairs...
I am curious bout this FCV...so if no infrastructure will be in place, how would ordinary folks get the hydrogen? This is prob. another classic "chicken or egg" scenario. Feds prob. will not get behind assisting in infrastructure, till they are convinced CSV is the "future" of portable fuels for transportation. I guess the initial use of these vehicles with public entities will produce real world data on CSV use. Do you have any prelim. data on their economics? The technology can't get more "green".
I am curious bout this FCV...so if no infrastructure will be in place, how would ordinary folks get the hydrogen? This is prob. another classic "chicken or egg" scenario. Feds prob. will not get behind assisting in infrastructure, till they are convinced CSV is the "future" of portable fuels for transportation. I guess the initial use of these vehicles with public entities will produce real world data on CSV use. Do you have any prelim. data on their economics? The technology can't get more "green".
04-26-13, 07:45 AM
#13
Long term (h) value
There are many arguments here for and against the monetary value of paying about 5K more (comparably equipped) for the RXh. I have one of the very 1st 2010 h models and haven't looked back. It IS a model up with more trim and equipment standard so there's that. My 2003 RX300 averaged 19-21mpg. My 2010 RX450h is maintaining just under 31mpg and with 49,000 on him now that's an easy 30% increase and significant savings in gas. The maintenance cost is cheaper and I may go above 120k or more before I even need front pads. I don't plan on trading soon but if I got the bug, it would return (all other things being equal) a higher percentage of original value. In the New York area (and some other areas) a very high percentage of the taxi fleets are Prius and RX450h models. Do they even have Camry's or RX350's? The burning question is why? I suspect the down time and long term cost per mile favors the hybrids. I haven't checked this fact but I'd be willing to guess the only hybrids in their taxi fleets or Toyota or Lexus.
Neither model is 'cheap', but for some to say the (h) isn't worth the difference, well they're entitled to their opinion. As we are ours
.
Neither model is 'cheap', but for some to say the (h) isn't worth the difference, well they're entitled to their opinion. As we are ours
.
Last edited by Cruiter; 04-26-13 at 07:53 AM.
04-26-13, 08:35 AM
#14
Lexus Champion
With 2 million hybrids sold by Toyota worldwide, the argument that the battery needs to be replaced is getting really old. I used to own a Prius and when I traded it, it depreciated the same, if not less than another Toyota would. However, I saved a few tons of gas, actually about 7 tons of crude oil, in the process. That's in just 2 years of ownership.
The battery cost for a Prius is $2K, not $5K.
RX450h battery is twice as much, $4K.
The battery cost for a Prius is $2K, not $5K.
RX450h battery is twice as much, $4K.
04-26-13, 10:13 AM
#15
That's good information eliminating a lot of conjecture. Thanks.
Also the battery should be considered like the engine, unless something goes radically wrong (unlikely), it's considered good for the life of the car.
Also the battery should be considered like the engine, unless something goes radically wrong (unlikely), it's considered good for the life of the car.
With 2 million hybrids sold by Toyota worldwide, the argument that the battery needs to be replaced is getting really old. I used to own a Prius and when I traded it, it depreciated the same, if not less than another Toyota would. However, I saved a few tons of gas, actually about 7 tons of crude oil, in the process. That's in just 2 years of ownership.
The battery cost for a Prius is $2K, not $5K.
RX450h battery is twice as much, $4K.
The battery cost for a Prius is $2K, not $5K.
RX450h battery is twice as much, $4K.