markrivers

Simple answer 10-15 years.
There's a graph somewhere, which i will try to find that compares hybrids and even regular Cars versus cost of gasoline.

If you need a hybrid vehicle perse, the Rx 450h is Definitely not it.
You are better off buying a 16,000 car which gets you 40mpgs than buying a luxury hybrid.

Most people who drives a 450h bought it for reasons beyond the fuel savings.

Cruiter

Mark
You didn't buy the RX 450h, you bought the straight 350 (which is also a nice car) so I'm wondering how you qualified your remarks .

I have 40,000 miles on mine now and I'm getting average of over 30 mpg. It's also a model up and if I were to sell or trade it would return a higher percentage of original cost all other things being equal. At the average prices gas has been since I bought it, I think I'm doing pretty well and smile when I fill up. Just saying without owning one, you might not be qualified to judge why 'most' people who have one made that decision.

markrivers

Hi Jim! , your'e right i didn't purchase a 450h although we strongly considered it.
we have a 2011 Toyota Prius as a daily commuter, a 2010 Range and the RX 350.

When i was doing my research, like most of you guys,
i came across a report , Luxury hybrid payback time.
Years to break even depending on gas prices ( $ 3, 4 or 5)

i have a friend who owns a 450h, i believe i went too far by taking his statement
and thinking "most" members were in the same boat.. he got an RX 450h because he likes most of the bells and whistles that were absent in the 350. He didn't buy it because of it's "hybrid" fuel saving capability.

i agree with the resale value BUT i strongly disagree with the fuel savings.

So to answer the question posted by a fellow member svofan1...
I would like to share that piece of information.





here's another table which isn't so forgiving with the 450h... it seems you will need 38 ( THIRTY EIGHT) years or 19 years if gasoline price is $6/gal just to break even.

The chart below shows the simple analysis are hybrid cars worth it. On the chart, the increased cost of hybrid vehicles is compared to
the increased fuel economy, and fuel cost savings.

On the chart, average mileage figures are given for a hybrid vehicle (first vehicle listed), and corresponding gas only powered vehicle (second one listed). Note that the EPA in their default analysis uses a 55% in town vs. 45% highway MPG rating.

15,000 miles are used in the Gal Gas column to compute the average gallons of gas needed to travel 15,000 miles per year. For example, the Prius needs 303 gallons on average to go 15,000 miles per year.

Next is the vehicle cost, from Yahoo Cars and other sources as needed. These are mostly invoice costs. These costs may vary considerably, but should do for comparative purposes.

The cost of the gas powered vehicle is then subtracted from the higher cost of the corresponding hybrid vehicle . The difference is what you need to break even.
Your annual gas savings amount is how you will slowly make up the difference.

For the break-even calculation, gasoline costs were checked at $3/gallon USD and again at $6/gallon USD. The gasoline used to go 15,000 miles is multiplied times $3 and 6$. These are annual gas costs, since the distance is $15,000 per year.

The differences in vehicle (hybrid-gas) costs are then divided by the gasoline costs. So you have Hybrid Cost Difference $ / Gas Cost $/Year = Years to break even



Here's a link as well, it is a nice read. If you have the time



http://www.edmunds.com/industry-cent...-ev-sales.html

Cruiter

I give to you the research you did but as you know that is all subjective to equal parameters and most important correct information. I didn't research every car on the Edmond's report but the information they published on the RX 450h dropped them way down the scale for me on the respect I previously had for them as being accurate. They showed the base price difference as $10700 which is several thousand too high and also showed the difference in MPG as 3 mpg which is close to 1/3 of the actual difference. My previous all gas RX gave me what most folks are getting, around 16 in the city and 20-22 on the highway. My 450h is giving me over 30 for both. Hmm . Do you think their figures might be a little skewed ??? Just saying .....

It is true that a lot of us (h) drivers like the techno bells & whistles, I confess I do. But that's not the only reason, it's the whole package that gives the extra dollars up. IMO, the way the (h) is designed to handle the extra weight and the CVT tranny performs it's even a superior driving machine.

svofan1

From what I have read most hybrids do have battery packs,correct?...is the 450h part of that group?., if so what is the life span of those packs?.....will anyone buy a hybrid (any brand) as the vehicle reaches the "end of life" for those batteries?...is the life span 10 years?....I know I wont, I have heard that it may cost upwards of $10k for replacement packs, not sure, just rumor...I have not investigated that aspect of the hybrids, but if it is true wont that reduced the resale value of the hybrid?....

I still like the bells and whistles...to hell with the fuel economy...lol.....let me enjoy it.....lol......I wish I had a 450h, instead of my 12 350, but someday....lol....

VVRX

Being a 450h owner I just had to weigh in on this discussion. I could care less about all these charts indicating the possible savings based on mpg etc. Sure I like the idea that I will get better mileage since it is a hybrid, but that is just one reason why I purchased it. Like Jim said, it comes down to the whole package.

BertL

svofan1: Battery packs, yes. Warranty on the RX450h packs is 96 months / 100K miles -- as is the whole hybrid system -- so it's longer than the rest of the vehicle and most non-hybrid standard warranties. I was told by my Lexus SA the first Prius (1997) battery pack just started being replaced a couple years back because they were "worn out" with a reported price tag of "$3K", so I don't buy anyone's suggestions of what the true lifespan or cost at that point in time would be on a RX450h, especially on this relatively new 2nd gen hybrid.

For me, I'm on my 2nd hybrid since 2006 and it was the only thing I'd consider. Electric or hydrogen one day will be in my future when those technologies stabilize and infrastructure to support them increases, I'm sure. I'm OK with paying a bit of a premium to have what "feels right" for me -- and today that is a hybrid for my daily driver SUV. I don't look at this from a pure financial benefit standpoint. I'd never get there, and never get into those debates with people. We can each make our own decision what is right for us. For me, there are huge subjective benefits having a hybrid that I can't quantify financially, e.g. I'm a technology guy that likes his toys, I like doing some little part to help the environment while I own my hybrid and when it is one day recycled, while reducing our dependence on foreign oil and not adding to already-too-rich oil company wallets here and overseas. I keep my vehicles 5-7 years, and even if I thought I'd keep my hybrid for 10, would not put the price of a replacement hybrid battery in my comparative spreadsheet. IMO today's vehicles with all their electronics, air bags that don't last forever, etc -- hybrid or not -- have increasingly prohibitive maintenance costs with age. I don't see myself keeping any new vehicle beyond the 8-10 year mark because of that alone.

DunWkg

Yes, there are batteries.
Two years ago, I was told the estimated cost was $8,000 for replacement.
Here is the warranty info:

Paul B

I'm not trying to bash the 450h, in fact I'm a supporter of the vehicle, but if anything, I would think this cost would result in a reduction of the 450h trade-in value below that of a 350 as one approaches the 8 year anniversary of the vehicle. It would probably reduce the trade-in value somewhere between $3K and $6K to factor in that replacement cost of the new batteries but not the full amount because you still have the gas mileage advantage as well as other refinements.

On the other hand, the cost of the battery replacements may come down in the years ahead.

ilv1004s

iTrader: (8)

as a 450H owner and a former 350 owner
i bought the 450H cuz of the cheaper petrol prices, the looks (LED low beam lights), the Technology and trying to do my part to save the world
one can argue that the 350 is cheaper to buy in the first place
the 450h is much nicer to drive than the 350 the 350 feels lets.. hm.. sporty than the 350
but i woudlnt go back to another 350 as the hybrid technology will get better over time

and on a side note
come on guys we are talking about luxury SUV's here do we really have talk about break even points as such ?

BertL

Perhaps. I believe it is a poor assumption though to assume at year 8 the batteries are replaced -- it has to be further out based on at least Prius track record -- year 10? 12? -- whatever. All we can do is speculate, as no luxury hybrid has been in existence 8 years yet to see what the resale value is. For kicks, I just did a quick KBB run of my 2006 RX400h (the first luxury hybrid) against a similar RX330 and the hybrid is still about 6% higher in resale value. If I do the same thing with similarly-equipped 2010 RX450h vs 350, there is a 16% delta... So, with a very unscientific quick look using only 4 KBB examples, I agree as time increases, the delta on resale value goes down. What we can't ignore though, and I believe the first question should be for anyone that wants to do a pure financial comparison, is to establish a REALISTIC number of years they believe they are going to keep their vehicle. That data point alone would change a pure financial comparison significantly I suspect -- quite differently for those that turn vehicles quickly (hybrid may win) and for those that want to keep them a more extreme number of years (hybrid may loose). As some of us have said, it's all how one wants to represent the numbers.

Paul B

I tend to keep vehicles beyond what most people do, firstly because I purchase new vehicles very well equipped and am not left wanting a particular set of features regretting that I didn't purchase it up front, and secondly, because beyond seven years much of the depreciation has already been amortized and, given that you made a suitable purchase up front, you end up driving the vehicle for maintenance costs only.

Given that I purchase a 450h next, perhaps a 2014 model, maybe sooner, and given that I keep it for 10 years, I'm confronted with the $6K or so delta up front and potentially an $8K expenditure possibly in year 9 or 10. Even if I don't experience a battery replacement cost in year 9 or 10, if I trade it in to a dealer or sell it to an informed buyer, they will discount my asking price by $3K-$6K to cover the expected replacement cost of the batteries.

There are so many unknowns and potentially incorrect assumptions that to me at least I've made up my mind to purchase the 450h and will make no attempt to justify it financially. If it works out financially, great! If it doesn't, I'm okay with that too. I've had the pleasure of driving a great vehicle that will keep me entertained and safe through its useful life. That's all the justification I need.

Now my focus can be applied to purchasing the vehicle at the lowest possible cost.

dctex99

For many of us the LAST thing we want is a battery car..........I am a car guy, drove a lot of v8's and would not consider a Hybrid and most importantly I NO IDEA how long I will keep my present vehicles, so could never justify the additional cost.!!
Regarding price of batteries; when Toyota first came out with theirs they said batteries would cost $7,000 to replace, but by the time they NEEDED replacement battery costs could be $700! I am sure a bit BS by advertising agency, but at least part true and we all know how far battery technology has come!! Real Horsepower Rules!

kitlz

I have to ask if we can get back on topic.

With that being said, there is a slight difference between the 350 and 450h when accelerating. It takes more than a test drive to get used to it. I wouldn't call it a lack of power though. Believe me it's there when needed. I've spanked a few cars that mistook my h for a slug Couldn't help myself. And I give the 450h the edge on smoothness.

ilv1004s

iTrader: (8)

hows this for a shime

i had a bit of a traffic light grand prix with a 200sx (S14 Silvia) in my 450h
he couldnt catch me untill he was in 3rd gear
i could hear exhaust and see the FMIC so definately not stock