NEWRXOWNR

This is kind of a continuation of this thread:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/rx-...k-knock-3.html

The reason I started a new thread is because the problem has now been diagnosed, so I wanted to blur out the discussion of it being something else. I also wanted to put everything in one place, with all the info in it, rather than spread across multiple replies. I am looking for any advice on what to do next, and perhaps try and put together a group of other owners that would be willing to pursue action together.

My 2010 Lexus RX 350 with 8,000 miles on it has been officially diagnosed with the dreaded Piston Slap. You can listen to the sound here, it gets real fun around 22 seconds in: http://youtu.be/SpayE-Cntxk

Here is a history:
I bought the car used this year, I never heard the sound (or even thought about listening for the sound). I first heard it on a cold start in the morning in cold weather about 1 week after having the car. I likely didn't hear it sooner because I always have the radio on and up before driving.

I took the car into a local Lexus dealer the first week of March. They told me that the sound was caused by the fuel injectors, and it was common on these cars. I tried to live with that response for a few weeks, but I couldn't.

I took the car back to the dealer the last week of March. I told them I wanted to drive the car with someone to hear the sound on a cold start. I dropped the car off Friday, and met with the assistant foreman and the service advisor Saturday morning. We drove the car, and could clearly hear the sound (although the temp was warmer, it wasn't as loud as I have heard it, but clearly audible). The foreman told me he thought it was "piston slap" and that it was common on the cars, and he was pretty sure we'd hear it on many of them. We test drove 2 other 2010 RX's that were cold, and there was absolutely no noise. I think the assistant foreman was a little surprised that the sound wasn't there *at all*.

The service advisor recommended that the head foreman drive the car on a cold start, he would be in the following Monday. So, I left my car there and the head foreman drove the car on Monday. He clearly heard the sound as well. Fortunately, the factory technician was visiting the dealer that Wednesday, so they kept the car to have the factory technician inspect.

Unfortunately, I could not pin down the factory tech, he doesn't go by an appointment or schedule, so he looked at it when I couldn't be there. His diagnosis was that it was a "Normal" piston slap, and there was nothing I could do.

I met with the head foreman and the service advisor. They were "very" supportive, and listened to me vent a little. The foreman said that it was definitely louder than other cars, and if I didn't like the result that I could open up a case with Lexus corporate.

I immediately opened up a case, Lexus customer service is so very nice, although they are just customer interaction folks, don't know anything technical at all. Nonetheless, very very nice. They told me I would be contacted within 5 business days. I called 7 business days later, and was told that my case was assigned a specialist and that the outcome was that they couldn't do anything. The specialist was not in, so I put in a request to speak with her and she was supposed to call me back. Unfortunately, I had to call back 4 days in a row before I could get a hold of my specialist in person. That was a little disappointing.

So, now it is the end of April. My specialist told me there was nothing I could do. I tried to appeal to her common good, I vented a little (nicely), but I definitely felt like she couldn't do anything even if she wanted. I told her that I was not satisfied with the result of the case, and that I was going to pursue every means possible to come to a resolution that I would be able to accept. I asked her to make a note of that on my case.

Where do I go from here? Not really sure. I plan on getting some oil Analysis done, as I Cannot believe that, as loud as my knocking is, that there isn't any damage. Oil Analysis is pretty cheap. I am going to follow some of the other recommendations here: http://www.pistonslap.com/help.htm

If we can drum up enough interest, perhaps the lot of us can jointly send Toyota / Lexus some correspondence and see if we can get anywhere. If willing, perhaps we can jointly submit the complaint to consumer advocacy groups or media outlets. If there are any takers, please reply to this thread.

I have done a TON of research, and thank a lot of people for help. Essentially, the issue is with the Toyota 3.5L 2GR-FE engine, so you will find people who have the problem with Toyota Siennas, Lexus ES, and yes Lexus RX (among others). Many different Toyota and Lexus models.

There are two camps on this subject. Those that accept it as normal, and that we should just live with it. They raise valid points (many cases show no excessive wear and tear, stop whining, live with it, turn the radio up or sell the car).

There are others (myself included) that cannot accept it as normal. I believe that there are varying degrees of piston slap, depending on the amount of clearance in the engine. My engine is *extremely* loud, others maybe somewhat loud, others barely audible. I feel like I would be fine living with the issue if it wasn't so friggin loud. The decision on whether or not to live with the issue is up to each person.

If you want to know what the characteristics of *my* sound are, and why it is different than lifters / fuel injectors / etc. The following sums it up:
-most evident on a cold start
-louder in colder weather
-not apparent during idle
-loudest under load, between 1500-2500 RPM
-fades away as the engine reaches normal operating temperature (the middle of the temp gauge on the dash).

Here are some other threads that may interest people out there:

This guy had a nasty piston slap, pretty similar to mine:
http://youtu.be/ggZOuJWgBPA

The above video also has a thread on this very forum:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/es3...e-noise-8.html

This is a different forum. This guy managed to have his short block replaced for a Piston Slap, although it was from a third party warranty, not Toyota.
http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/sh...4&goto=newpost

This fellow happened to get a Premium warranty at no cost for his piston slap
http://siennachat.com/forum/index.php?topic=311.60

Finally, a link to my noise...
http://youtu.be/SpayE-Cntxk

JimH2

It seems like most manufacturers adhere to "it is normal to have some percentage of vehicles w/ piston slap", and it does not hurt the engine. In one of the GM blogs on the topic, they mentioned that the only recourse was to show that it is not manufactured to spec where you have either a.) excessive oil use, and/or b.) you have excessive metal (wear from the piston/cylander walls) fragments in an oil analysis. This might not show up for awhile, depending on the severity of the condition. The blog also suggested that the sale price to a private party later might be reduced substantially if the condition is known, but that is subjective and has no bearing to a manufacturer. It seems you have your case documented, but doubt that a class action suit could be brought forward ?

RXSF

From a car maker's standpoint, we are talking about an issue that could potentially involve millions and millions of toyota/lexus products. that engine is in the Rav4, camry, avalon, highlander, ES and RX. Obviously I hope you get your problem resolved, but if they do it for you, it means that have to contact everyone else who they turned down and replace engines in the future. $$$$$

boxcarfan

honestly, get over it. im not trying to be mean. but there is nothing that can be done. at all. ive seen the piston thats in the block. its a short skirt piston w/teflon coating. its giong to have piston slap. God himself cant change it.

boxcarfan

oh and just be glad your valve springs haven't broken. it had 5,000 miles with a broke valve spring...GR engines are CRAP! 2JZ FTW!!!!!!

Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

I had it in cold weather in my '09 RX till the engine warmed up.Aggravating.I was told it was normal.

TACH_MOTOR

Stock vehicles dont or should not have any form of piston slap. That means the actual piston is deformed in the cylinders hitting the walls. What you can do is send your oil in for analysis to determine if you have any abnormal bearing material or metal contamination caused by something internally.

NEWRXOWNR

TACH_MOTOR, that is exactly what I plan on doing. I am pretty sure the oil hasn't been changed for a few thousand miles, so if there are any issues with any of the slap, there is a chance they will show up in the oil.

I am thinking of getting a compression test when it is cold again and the sound is loudest, but that won't be until January of next year.

NEWRXOWNR

JimH2, I am not thinking about a class action suit (at least not now). But if enough people sent the same letters to the same people at the same time, perhaps it will get some additional attention. Consumer reports may not care about one person with a piston slap, but may take notice if they get 30 reports about the same issue at the same time. It may not do any good, but 30 people standing up and yelling would at least make more noise than one person. Whether or not anyone would care is a different story, but when you don't have many options other than legal or just living with it, it seems at least worthwhile.

NEWRXOWNR

boxcarfan,
No offense taken, the most talked about option is to just live with it. Believe me, I really really really really wish I could. If I get enough analysis done (oil analysis, tests) to prove that no damage is being done, and if I could find an oil / additive combination that dampened the sound, it would certainly make things easier. I will continue to post updates on any findings to help our members.

JimH2

I agree with your sentiments and asking folks to complain if they have such a problem. I imagine it is a small percentage though. Getting an oil analysis now and then following up in another year might give you an indication of how bad the problem is (done at the same lab). In the 1960's, you might have put in 40 weight oil and a can of STP---probably not recommended now !

tim5055

I use Blackstone Labs. The report they give you will not only the details of your specific numbers they will give you comparison numbers from all engines of they type they have tested.

HERE is an example of one of my reports for my F-250.

GoHuskers

I would like to see your oil analysis as well. I don't drive the RX that much but I do get bothered by the engine noise (I also got annoyed by my 07 IS250 engine noise as well)

Thanks.

tim5055

I forgot to say, the test with Blackstone is only $25 and call them and they will send you a test kit (bottle & mailing container) free of charge. If you want to test it multiple times or test multiple cars there is a discount for paying for a few tests up front.

I usually get my results back via e-mail within a few days of mailing the sample to them.

NEWRXOWNR

The X Men,
Right, this is purely unscientific as I know nothing about engines. But I guess, for whatever reason, the specs for each are likely at the on opposite ends of the far range of tolerance. Say the piston tolerance is piston.size(small) - piston.size(big), and the boring / cylinder size is cylinder.size(small) - cylinder.size(big), if you pair piston.size(small) with cylinder.size(big)you get more clearance, and more noise.

That said, feel free to tell me I don't know crap about engines, because well, I don't, and my logic maybe complete crap (but to the uninformed, hey it sounds logical)