myspouses

7.)I have been e-mailed by Transport Canada--Recalls and Defects, who say
"we have proposed on off switch requirement in the new regulation governing E.S.C." I also have the belief because of my advice they are monitoring this board. Governments should act when there is not commensurate education/communication coming from industry. It is far better to set up monitoring of educated AAA/CAA Tow Truck Operators over just listening to Toyota/Lexus input. At the Dealer Service Managers' desk I can attest a great lack of awareness around this issue. Unfortunately this enforcement of communication falls from federal to provincial responsibility in this country. And, therein lies the problem of an uneducated public in an active safety matter for winter lake-effect snowbelt drivers--especially with climate change.

biff44

I would tend to agree. Without the stability system on, the engine will simply apply power to the one wheel out of four that is free to spin! How is that even going to start you to rock the car?

With the VSC on, there is a time lag, but at least it applies power to a wheel with some traction.

What we need here is for someone in the great white north to go get their RX stuck good, and try both methods of getting out. After a few tries with and without the fuse inserted, there should be enough statistics to see which way is best.

It seems that what you are really hoping for is for Lexus to install an electrically locking differential! If you need something like that, I submit you are in the wrong vehicle. Go get a trail rated Jeep!

myspouses

I trust Tow Truck Driver comments as realistic input,
although vehicle testing is a good idea
and this is not a RX350 issue specifically.
so industry/government tests should be transparent
for good judgement here.
Why is this being regulated?
Why is Lexus/Toyota being quiet?
and most important, Why wouldn't a Service Manager be given a packet of information which he could use with Customers as he sees fit?

Kan-O-Z

I would like to talk to a tow truck driver myself. Here is what I find hard to believe. Does the tow truck driver mostly pull out cars that DON'T have a VSC disable switch? I think Lexus/Toyota may be the only cars that DON'T have a disable switch. I would find it hard to believe that the tow truck driver is mostly rescuing Toyota/Lexus cars. I would like to know the percentage of cars the tow truck driver rescued had a VSC system and what percentage didn't. Of those that did, what percentage did not have a disable switch. I think these statistics would really help.

Once again, this may apply much more to 2 wheel drive cars. This may also be a finding that they may have had with perhaps just one or two models where the system did interfere. Rather than doing a massive study and research on exactly which vehicles benefit from disable and which don't, it's just easier to standardize and regulate it. I would also think that 4 wheel drive vehicles don't benefit from this but they are automatically under new regulation.

It is a possibility that the reason they are being quiet is because it is a non-issue. They may have done tests that don't show ANY benefit. They are simply abiding by the regulation. If this is the case, do you blame them for being quiet? Please be open-minded, since this is a possibility.

Please remember that pre-2008 Lexus DID add a switch on their two wheel drive models but not on the 4 wheel drive models. Maybe there was a benefit on two wheel drive models but not on the 4 wheel drive models. I don't buy that Lexus just didn't get around to adding it to the 4 wheel drive model. This is Lexus we're talking about and moreover, if the system has been developed, it's not that hard to apply it to 4 wheel drive models. After all, it's software and it's probably the same software regardless if the vehicle is 2 wheel drive or 4 wheel drive.

The government should pass a regulation for a differential lock on 4 wheel drive vehicles. Now that would really be a safety item.

Kan-O-Z

myspouses

8.)I have e-mail from Lexus that talks about the VSC OFF and TRAC OFF (2WD)
being added to 2008 RX350 "to assist drivers in the following situation as per page 139 of the 2008 RX350 Owner's Manual:
If the vehicle gets stuck in fresh snow or mud, TRAC and VSC may reduce power from the engine to the wheels. You may need to turn the system off to enable you to rock the vehicle in order to free it."

Now on this board I seem to be only person who believes Lexus.
Others believe no benefit. Only time will tell.

Keep in mind I've talked to chief engineer who was responsible for bringing Lexus manufacture to Cambridge, ON., CANADA--the first overseas Lexus production and I believed her when she said reprograming the ECU for 4WD takes a lot longer.

If one looks at this topic on VTEC.NET for Honda/Acura there are 350 threads.

myspouses

9.) On bottom Pg 427 my manual, "What to do if..."; it starts out with
"The vehicle is stuck in mud or sand" . Snow is only mentioned when you read Pg. 386 procedures. While I believe description for why you turn off VSC to rock vehicle free, I don't believe writers in Torrence, California
understand significance of SNOW or SNOWBELTS or LAKE-EFFECT SNOW, or BLACK ICE or WHITEOUTS.
It's a rather expensive product for such underperformance by the writers in Torrence. Calling VSC Vehicle Skid Control; leaving any mention of VSC OFF switch out of e-brochure on 2008's; but mentioning the switch in Press Release and giving no explanation whatsoever about it's purpose.
There a big gap here between Customers and Manufacturer, and it's not the Engineering.

myspouses

10.)What I want:
Just like Consumer Protection in another Province has banned All Season Tires
use in winter (and this is needed where I live as well), I want it obligatory* that RX350 2007 Customers have a letter go out from Dealers explaining new VSA OFF switch and what is on page 139 of new owner's manual. Also Customers should be advised that no retrofit is possible but that best driver's procedures for getting unstuck from fresh snow/sand or mud be discussed with Service Manager on next Service Scheduled Visit.

*this obligation should be for all Ontario Dealers who have introduced any Active Safety system change from one model to the next that would benefit Drivers knowledge of previous models. This is a recognition that if computers over-ride rocking a vehicle free, a driver and the occupants could be endangered. It would only apply where a vehicles occupants could be endangered.

benzo555

iTrader: (11)

Basically the things you want costs money. Why should Lexus tell you a change from the next model to a previous model. This is an improvement or not improvement depending the way you look at it. Deal with it. It is part of life and if you feel Lexus built unsafe vehicles then sell it. Any car or vehicle specially in snow will have a greater chance of occupants be in danger. Or better yet just stay home. You're beating a dead horse here.

silvervett

This is just my opinion but I think you are expecting too much and are looking for a perfect car in a not so perfect world. If I had to sell a car I would rather let it go unsold than sell it to you because I get the feeling that you will never be satisfied. Someone said this at the start of this thread and it is worth repeating. Relax and enjoy your car. Life is too short to waste time on something like this. Instead of using your time obsessing over a minor non-issue take your wife or girl friend for a nice ride or a weekend get away. Relax and enjoy life.

Lil4X

Although this subject has been worked to death, there is one item that needs to be mentioned.

Liability.

It is difficult for a manufacturer to offer a "safety" system such as VSC AND at the same time, a means of defeating it. There are plenty of bozos out there who will turn the system off, imagining in their tiny little minds that their SUV will magically turn into a Ferrari if it can only spin its wheels and perform lurid broadslides.

So they switch it off.

Then in an incredible act of driver dumbnity they manage to run off the road and up a tree. Who's to blame? The driver? Of course not, he was only doing his best Michael Schumacher impression in the family wagon at near escape velocity when he departed both the roadway and this earthly veil, leaving behind a grieving family who, on the advice of their attorney, is out to collect on this tragedy.

Lexus is sitting around with a big bullseye painted on it's corporate shorts. Deep pockets indeed! Of course having developed a "safety"-related system, they should never provide the means of circumventing it. Doing so is prima facie evidence of negligence - failure to protect the driver from his own stupidity.

There are sadly, a large number of products that cannot be brought to market simply for liability issues. If we allow complex navigation systems in the front seat of an automobile, we have to disable all but a few of the programming tools when the vehicle is in motion. Worse, we have to make the driver "accept" the liability for accidents when fiddling with the system underway - every time he twists the ignition key.

It looks like automotive technology of the future will involve more attorneys than engineers.

silvervett

I decided to respond to mypouses private massage in public so that others may realize that sometimes the things we worry about aren’t all that bad. In the private message Myspouses sent he wished me luck and to enjoy driving my car. Unfortunately I can’t do that right now because I don’t have a RX to drive. In mid October of 07 I leased an 07 RX400H. I had just bought a house in Texas and I needed a car to drive while I was in Texas. I have a 2003 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland in New York because I wanted to keep the Lexus in an area where the roads aren’t salted. And since the Jeep has already been through a few winters I figured it was better to keep the Jeep in NY and keep the RX in salt free Texas. I have had a few problems with the RX. In the short time I have had the RX400H the computer locked up 2 or 3 times and the dashboard lights came on but the car wouldn’t start. The airbag light comes on but I always belt up so I am not worried because I will get it fixed when I have the time. I really wasn’t bothered because I figured I would sort things out when I got the chance. Also some people are disappointed with the gas mileage with the RX400H but I am thrilled because it gets more than double the mileage than my Jeep. My problem is that right after I got the Lexus my mother’s health took a turn for the worst and I have to stay in NY to take care of her. So right now I am making payments on a car the is sitting in a garage in Texas collecting dust. I am going to have to sell the house in Texas and lose tens of thousands of dollars. I have tickets to fly out to Texas on March 30 and drive my car back to NY so at least I will be able to drive the Lexus I am making payments on. I am not looking for sympathy, I am just trying to point out that it is only a car and only money. It isn’t worth getting upset over nor is it worth taking time away from enjoying life and doing things that will give you enjoyment. Life goes on don’t let something like this disrupt your life. Look at the bright side of it, at least your car isn’t sitting in a garage 1,800 miles away.

silvervett

well said, I find it annoying to have to pull over to the side of the road to use the Nav system. I have a Garmin that sits on top of the dash on my jeep and since it isn't conected I can use it while I drive. I have not had the chance to see how the stability system works yet but I loved the way it worked on my Corvette. The Vette system could be turned off if you pressed the button for about 5 or 10 seconds but it would reset itself to on every time you turn off the key and started it back up again.

Nekrus

I'm waaaayyy late to the conversation but I just recently bought a 2007 Lexus RX 350 AWD and I agree with myspouses, there should be an Off switch and if not Lexus/Toyota should at least publish an alternative should the situation arise. I know it might be a rare case when you would actually need to turn off TRAC with an AWD vehicle but that doesn't mean it won't ever happen and like myspouses I want to have the ability to do it if I do experience the need. It's been added to the 2008 model for 2WD and AWD, how hard would it be to wire this switch into a 2007 model?

I've researched this quit a bit. I tried the Brake Pedal Dance (Doesn't seem to work on the RX), I've read you can disable TRAC by removing the sensor from the air filter while the engine is running (haven't tried this yet but will soon). Has anybody figure out a way to do this by simply removing a fuse? I don't necessarily need the switch added, I just need a way to disable TRAC if the need arises.