The Sludge/"Gelling" issue (merged threads)
12-08-06, 06:44 PM
#1
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The Sludge/"Gelling" issue (merged threads)
I did my last two oil changes and noticed that I lost 1/2 qt first time and 1 qt recently oil change. There is no leaking sign when inspected the oil pan. Is this normal oil consumption for 5k/4mo interval oil changes? I have 2000 rx300 with 80K mi.
12-08-06, 07:02 PM
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I usually let the local shop changed oil every 4mo or 5k mi with dino oil. Around 65K mi. I started use syntheic(mobile one 5w30) and changed oil myself. I didn't paid attention early about oil consumption until recently.
12-08-06, 07:57 PM
#4
Some believe color of engine oil is a good indicator or following Lexus' recommendation blindly. Well for other engines perhaps, but for 1mz-fe, no.
Many Used Oil Analysis reports indicate the acid neutralization additive of dino oil are completely depleted before 5K miles mark. 5w-30 dino oil is also tested to shear to a 20 weight oil as early as 200 miles after a fresh dino oil change. UOA is a spectrum report of chemical and physical test by independent lab. IMHO more scientific than the crude "if it is dark, change it" method.
My friend, above abnormal chemical and physical change of engine oil is caused by higher than normal temperature in the cam head of 1mzfe. My suggestion is to ask a Lexus dealer to exam by pulling the valve cover and if either soft or hard sludge is found, replace the whole engine under warranty.
Many Used Oil Analysis reports indicate the acid neutralization additive of dino oil are completely depleted before 5K miles mark. 5w-30 dino oil is also tested to shear to a 20 weight oil as early as 200 miles after a fresh dino oil change. UOA is a spectrum report of chemical and physical test by independent lab. IMHO more scientific than the crude "if it is dark, change it" method.
My friend, above abnormal chemical and physical change of engine oil is caused by higher than normal temperature in the cam head of 1mzfe. My suggestion is to ask a Lexus dealer to exam by pulling the valve cover and if either soft or hard sludge is found, replace the whole engine under warranty.
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12-10-06, 12:48 AM
#5
Take a look at this 2001 Camry with 8700 miles before the very first oil change. Same 1mzfe engine as the RX300.
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/sludg...ng_sludge.html
http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/sludg...ng_sludge.html
12-10-06, 07:49 AM
#6
Super Moderator
Yucky.
Also interesting was all that corrosion around the exhaust manifold. Never seen it so bad on a 1MZFE engine (nor too many engines for that year).
Also interesting was all that corrosion around the exhaust manifold. Never seen it so bad on a 1MZFE engine (nor too many engines for that year).
12-10-06, 05:39 PM
#7
Lexus Champion
Those photos were taken out of context. It was from a neglected/abused engine. And it's an oil sludge problem, not oil gelling.
When oil gelling happens, the oil becomes a thick, gel-like substance that clogs oil passages. Engine parts become starved of oil and break down.
When oil gelling happens, the oil becomes a thick, gel-like substance that clogs oil passages. Engine parts become starved of oil and break down.
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12-10-06, 07:33 PM
#8
Those photos were taken out of context. It was from a neglected/abused engine. And it's an oil sludge problem, not oil gelling.
When oil gelling happens, the oil becomes a thick, gel-like substance that clogs oil passages. Engine parts become starved of oil and break down.
When oil gelling happens, the oil becomes a thick, gel-like substance that clogs oil passages. Engine parts become starved of oil and break down.
12-10-06, 10:48 PM
#9
Those photos were taken out of context. It was from a neglected/abused engine. And it's an oil sludge problem, not oil gelling.
When oil gelling happens, the oil becomes a thick, gel-like substance that clogs oil passages. Engine parts become starved of oil and break down.
When oil gelling happens, the oil becomes a thick, gel-like substance that clogs oil passages. Engine parts become starved of oil and break down.
Here is a link posted by BenjaminT in this thread
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho....php?t=196162I
I repost it again for those who are looking for independent analysis and not closed minded to trust Toyota's reliability reputation blindly.
http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=150&did=1090
Independent automotive technicians, engineers and an oil company chemist say the sludge buildup could be the result of a combination of factors that include temperature, manufacturing, engineering, design, driving habits and poor maintenance.
Bruce Crawley, a lubrication specialist for ExxonMobil Corp., said the first thing he would look for in investigating a sludge problem would be "cold spots" on surfaces where the oil circulates, because large variances in internal engine temperatures can cause sludge.
"You don't want any cold spots because that's where you get acid forming," he said. "You'll get oil coming up one way and acid coming down the other way, and ultimately they contact. On some engines you can actually see where that is happening because you'll see deposits in a particular part of the engine where there is a cold spot."
"You don't want any cold spots because that's where you get acid forming," he said. "You'll get oil coming up one way and acid coming down the other way, and ultimately they contact. On some engines you can actually see where that is happening because you'll see deposits in a particular part of the engine where there is a cold spot."
Larry Parry, an independent repair technician in Orlando, Fla., and host of a radio auto-repair talk show, says Toyota's change to the oil baffles won't stop the sludge from building up.
"There's nothing on top of the engine restricting the drain at all in that motor," he said. The internal temperatures are the problem, contends Parry.
Parry said he has measured the temperature of the cylinder block and heads. He said the block runs at 190 to 210 degrees Fahrenheit, while the heads typically reach 260 to 270 degrees.
Parry, who says he has repaired about 30 sludge-filled Toyota engines since 1998, contends the V-6's cylinder head temperature is too high because Toyota reduced the size of coolant passages in the head gaskets.
He says that makes for a hotter, cleaner burn, but also causes sludge to build up because the oil gets too hot. Also, Parry says, sludge develops as the oil passes back into the block, which is running 60 to 70 degrees cooler.
According to General Motors, the industry standard for temperature differences between the cylinder head and engine block is between 10 and 15 degrees.
Hanson said cooling passages were not made smaller and there are no 60-degree temperature variances inside the engine.
"There's nothing on top of the engine restricting the drain at all in that motor," he said. The internal temperatures are the problem, contends Parry.
Parry said he has measured the temperature of the cylinder block and heads. He said the block runs at 190 to 210 degrees Fahrenheit, while the heads typically reach 260 to 270 degrees.
Parry, who says he has repaired about 30 sludge-filled Toyota engines since 1998, contends the V-6's cylinder head temperature is too high because Toyota reduced the size of coolant passages in the head gaskets.
He says that makes for a hotter, cleaner burn, but also causes sludge to build up because the oil gets too hot. Also, Parry says, sludge develops as the oil passes back into the block, which is running 60 to 70 degrees cooler.
According to General Motors, the industry standard for temperature differences between the cylinder head and engine block is between 10 and 15 degrees.
Hanson said cooling passages were not made smaller and there are no 60-degree temperature variances inside the engine.
12-11-06, 01:17 PM
#11
I would like to encourage rx93 to go to the nearest Lexus dealership and post back what he found. Many members reported this inspection service is free.
If there are pictures, that would be super since this could be a great case study:
1) rx93 followed 5K/4 month oil change interval with dino oil for 65K. The change interval is termed by Lexus as "special operating condition" or severe service schdule, but by following it, it is not a neglect case.
2) The RX300 is consuming oil abnormally, one of few symptoms of oil sludge formation.
3) Find out from Lexus whether sludge is formed.
4) If sludge is found, what is Lexus service manager's comment and who picks up the tap for repair/replacement.
According to Toyota' official statement, oil gelling and sludge is the same, addressed by the same official letter. Toyota termed the problem "oil gelling or sludge" .
http://www.autosafety.org/uploads/To...r%20Letter.pdf
If one has another Toyota or indepedent documents to indicate oil sludge and gel are caused differently, please post. Otherwise, stop misleading other members.
If there are pictures, that would be super since this could be a great case study:
1) rx93 followed 5K/4 month oil change interval with dino oil for 65K. The change interval is termed by Lexus as "special operating condition" or severe service schdule, but by following it, it is not a neglect case.
2) The RX300 is consuming oil abnormally, one of few symptoms of oil sludge formation.
3) Find out from Lexus whether sludge is formed.
4) If sludge is found, what is Lexus service manager's comment and who picks up the tap for repair/replacement.
According to Toyota' official statement, oil gelling and sludge is the same, addressed by the same official letter. Toyota termed the problem "oil gelling or sludge" .
http://www.autosafety.org/uploads/To...r%20Letter.pdf
If one has another Toyota or indepedent documents to indicate oil sludge and gel are caused differently, please post. Otherwise, stop misleading other members.
Last edited by TunedRX300; 12-11-06 at 05:22 PM.
12-11-06, 03:59 PM
#12
12-11-06, 05:01 PM
#13
Super Moderator
"NotHot (from Nology) or WaterWetter reduces the coolant temperature by reducing surface tension. Keep in mind that in the course of combustion heat is of course generated. Well, in this process hot spots develop in the engine along the path of the coolant. We don't like these hot spots. To make matters worse, the heat in this areas has a tough time being released from the system. because heat generate vapor in the form of bubbles just above them. Well, these products reduce the size of the bubbles and thus heat can more readily be removed from the system. I prefer the WaterWetter over the NotHot, but availability and importation are difficult here. These products also have some good anti-corrosion plus other beneficial benefits.
Some of these companies say up to a 30F lowering, I don't know about that, but stuff does cool my little baby down."
12-11-06, 08:42 PM
#15
Lead Lap
