Whitigir

Battery dissipated over time. Battery can not be considered as a Mechanical Metal parts, where frictions wear the parts out. Battery was made up of different chemical mixture to conduct, store, separate electron. Every time a Battery Discharged, Charged, the longevity of it decrease, even if the battery sit still.

The optimal time to charge a battery is when it only have 5% charge left. This hold true for many other battery on different types as well. Therefore, all of Toyota Hybrids have the battery charged on this scale.

For all that said, if you want your battery on Ipad, Iphone, Laptop, to last longer. You don't keep plugging your Power in. You use the battery until it is down to 5%, and charge it. This will increase your battery life, same thing as it performance.

Again, you don't need to worry about Battery pack for atleast 10 years. Because Federal Law Enforces that all Battery on Hybrid vehicle to be Guaranteed for 10 years or 100,000 miles

vlad_a

Prius' operating battery discharge rate is between 40% and 60% of its capacity. It only uses 20% of what it stores. It is designed this way for maximum longevity. Unlike EVs, it is used as a buffer to increase efficiency and provide power boost when needed.

watch37

I can attest to the high resale value of a RX 450h, having owned one for two years and recently trading it in with about 46,000 miles on the clock. However, let me add that there is still a perception among car buyers (even though it's wrong) that a high mileage hybrid exposes you to the risk that the battery may go bad, supposedly costing several thousands of dollars to fix. So, while I got tremendous residual value on my 450h (I've posted the details in the hybrid section a few months ago), I'm not sure that value would have continued throughout the ownership of that vehicle.

UCSB

I think your analysis is just plain wrong on virtually every point. I don't know about the cost delta between the vehicles. When I purchased mine, it was about $7k. Am not sure about your mileage numbers. EPA numbers are 21 and 29 (AWD). If you don't want to use them, for urban usage in SF area I would use 17 and 27.5 (AWD). With the hybrid you do not need to get a smog check every other year and brakes should last much longer (~$200/year). Finally, virtually every gas station in the SF bay area sells premium for $.20 difference in price. So if you want to use $3.87 for regular, use $4.07 for premium (gas prices in the SF bay area have been higher than this for most of the last year).

RX350 annual gas (17 MPG) = $3,432 + Smog Checks / Brakes = $3,632
RX450h annual gas (27.5 MPG) = $2,219 ... I hoover around 30 MPG on my FWD; a good friend of mine average 27.8 MPG on over 24,000 on his AWD commuting in SF bay area.

Annual difference = $1,413
Purchase difference 350 vs 450h = $7,000
Minus extras on 450h = $1,000 + for this analysis ... but, probably $1,500 - $3,000 range is more accurate (tire pressure values for each wheel shown separately, CVT, vehicle dynamics, chrome fog light surround, etc.)
Net difference in cost = $6,000

Break even on gas / basics = 4.2 years

Other factors to consider:
Gas prices could go up if world economy improves ... this will lower break even considerably ... possibly into the 2 to 3 year range when depreciation and gas costs are analyzed. If gas prices go really high, breakeven will be in the 1 to 2 year range as SUV's that can get in the 14 MPG - 17 MPG in urban driving fall out of favor.

I'm just trying to show that your 17 year number is off base. I would use something more like 5 years ... still not a compelling deal. Good arguments can be made for the 450h or the 350. The higher your annual miles or the longer you plan to own the car will make the 450h more attractive relative to the 350. Beyond that look to the serene, quiet driving experience of the 450h and the way the CVT works among pluses for the 450h.

I think the new hybrids, like the ES, where the hybrid is only a couple of thousand more are much more compelling. With the RX, Lexus took much of the benefit off the table with their pricing of the vehicle. I will continue buying hybrids in the future, but will stick with models like the ES where the price penalty is low.

mdh95070

I think you are right. I had the wrong gas prices. My mistake. I am likely closer to 7-9 years on today's prices and brakes.

Cruiter

Bill, part of what kept the price on the ESh down is the engine. It's the large 4cyl VS the 3.5L 6cyl.

markrivers

@UCSB, something's OFF your calculation either.
and mdh95070

We don't do smog check on the first 2 years of ownership since we're talking about NEW RX 350 s 450h.
And i don't know any RX Owner that has replaced brake pads on the first 2 years either, regardless of driving habits.
AND, Unless mdh95070 is buying the RX Cash with no financing what so ever,
The 5000-6000 difference between the two should be multiplied to the APR on the loan.
Let's say he has an excellent credit and got the 1.9% APR for 60 months, then that's $475 more for owning the 450h.

Here's an old article from edmunds.com titled " luxury hybrid payback time"

http://http://www.edmunds.com/indust...-ev-sales.html



Just google luxury payback time if the link doesn't work.

UCSB

I'm not saying my analysis is perfect or complete. I'm not sweating the details on this right now ... I have made my purchase already. But, just trying to explain why OP's 17 years is off base. According to the article you referenced, based on gas prices during the past six months (here in the San Francisco area) the breakeven on a 450h vs 350 would be 6.5 years (from their chart). If you have good credit, you can get low financing from 3rd parties on your 450h. Check it out, that is not an issue. Monetize the brake pads and smog checks (plus your time and aggravation) in any way you feel is correct; I'm not committed to any approach ... I just hated going down and doing the smog checks.

The 450h is not going to be a great example of hybrid payback. Lexus sealed the deal there with the price differential. Hopefully, the 4th gen RX will narrow the gap substantially. When it starts taking 4, 5, 6 or more years to break even, the economic argument is weak. Personally, I've enjoyed owning the car. I will buy another hybrid or plug-in on my next car. I doubt if the 450h is going to pay off economically for me, but it might ... only time will tell.

markrivers

^ i agree with you.
and as i've said in the other thread, when it comes to upgrade, i'll be getting a 450h.
i'll be doing so because i enjoyed owning the Prius, i love the technology and i want to help the environment by being less dependent on fossil fuel.
i WON"T do any mathematics on when i will get a "payback" on the price difference vs a 350.

However, if one's approach is just to save a few bucks on the pump.. like what the OP intends to do, then it becomes a different story.
Same argument goes for owning a purely electric vehicle, whether it's a nissan leaf or a Tesla S.
it will take years before one can justify the price difference between a Versa $13,000 and a Leaf $ 28,000 ( MSRP $35,0000- $7,500 federal rebate).
Additional expense will be the charging station you'll have to install at home for faster charging ( $ 1,500-2,000).

watch37

I think something that often gets overlooked in the hybrid vs non-hybrid debate is driving experience. My sister owns a RX 350 and as I posted above, I owned a RX 450h for two years. So I have driven both versions extensively. They both drive differently, so it's a mistake to think that a 450h is basically a 350 with better gas mileage. Some people like the hybrid drive feel, some don't. Also, during my ownership of the 450h, because I was constantly aware of the fact that I was driving a hybrid, I found that my driving habits changed. In an effort to try to "get" to the advertised MPG (thus justifying to myself that I didn't make a mistake in buying a hybrid), I went super soft on the gas pedal. Although I don't consider myself an aggressive driver, I didn't like "being forced" to drive in a manner that made driving less fun, if that makes sense. However, many 450h owners enjoy that experience, and I don't knock that at all.

The driving experience differs in so many other ways. When you start up the car in the morning, do you like the sound of the roar of the engine (as muted as it may be for the 350), or the near dead silence of the hybrid? Does the sound of regenerative brakes bother you? It did for me, but my wife was fine with it. How about acceleration from the stop position? There is a slight hesitation with the hybrid, which I'm sure improves MPG, but if immediate, on demand, get up and go is important to you, then you might have to think more carefully if you want to go the hybrid route. And going up hill is a bit more of a chore in the 450h.

My comments above are not meant to bash the 450h, or hybrids generally. My wife and I overall enjoyed our 450h. The car was her daily driver for the past 2 years, and after two years, she said she "really liked" the car, but didn't "love" it. Last October we traded it in for a used LX 570, the total opposite of her 450h. After six months as her daily driver, she said she loves the LX and while we have to pay more at the pump, she has no regrets making the change.

vlad_a

^^^^
When we had our Prius, I was also taking it easy to keep the MPG high (high 40s). That was all fixed with 450h. I drive it like a normal vehicle, as it is nowhere as economical as the Prius was. I enjoy driving it so much more.

07LexusGuy

The break-even point also depends on how long you intend to keep the car. You'd have to keep it for X number of years to break even, then continue driving it to make back some money. For me, it wouldn't work out as I buy a new car and pass my old vehicle on to a family member every 5 years or so. In my case, I would never get the pay back even if based on the 6.5 year break-even time.

Economics in the purchase of 350 vs 450h will vary from one person to the next, there's no one size fits all here.

CanadianRX

My main reason for not getting one was the CVT and potential resale loss in 10 years. We expect to have around 120k miles. I liked how quiet it was but my wife couldn't get over the regen braking and tranny. I couldn't get over the CVT either. I sure hope Toyota eventually moves to a dsg or regular 8 speed. It's all personal preference.

tromly

There is a vast difference between a RX and a Highlander, starting with the duration of the bumper to bumper warranty. No comparison with quietness, comfort, and the ambience of LEXUS.

robartin

I recently was faced with the same decision. Once I drove the 450h, the decision was made, it was just a matter of figuring out how to make it work. What we did was go with a CPO 2012 450h instead of a new 2013 350. Essentially I traded one year's worth of vehicle life for the hybrid capability at the same price point.

I am very happy with my decision. The 450 is strikingly quiet and I like getting good mileage. I had a very hard time with the idea of buying an 18 MPG vehicle in the year 2013.

You will have to drive the 450 differently to approach the stated mileage. If you drive it like a regular car, take short trips, and run the heat and AC all the time you will get low 20's averages. If you drive with a light foot you can get mid to upper 20's. I have found a 30+ MPG average to be very difficult to achieve in my area and with my family's driving patterns.

So anyhow, CPO might be a good way to level the playing field between the hybrid and non, that's what I did.