salimshah

Older Lexus models had "VSC" and it has been changed to VSA. The litrature may be laggin in making the change. I suspect there were some lawyer wordsmithing (along with possible engineering changes*) that wanted to convay the difference between "control" and "assist".

All the power to you on your pursuit of perfection. Don't forget to enjoy the vehicle.

Salim

myspouses

I happen to believe in Lexus' attempt to accomplish a lifelong car buying relationship. I also take driving very seriously and live in an area with terrific drives and sometimes terrific challenges for a vehicle. So when engineers improve driver control I pay attention.
My point is how easy it would be for Lexus Dealers, in few instances where driver control/safety come up with a model change, to take a very deliberate effort to communicate with their "guests" (as I was called) about the changes.
When you find out, after-the-fact, about most recent improvement, then Lexus becomes like all other dealer experiences.
When you are subject to needing the info. about how to rock vehicle out of a big snow drift, as in this case, then most Canadian dealers should be proactive (and some regions in USA). This is a Consumer Safety issue for me.
In Canada, Transport Canada are enforcers and consumer issues fall to Provincial Gov.'ts/self-management bodies (OMVIC here in Ontario) and they have to make a ruling. But Transport Canada is watching this one.

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

Myspouses,

I have merged a number of your threads with related topics you posted across various forums.

The RX350 forum is the correct spot for your questions, comments and concerns please. Just add to this one if it's the same topic rather than creating new posts.

myspouses

Transport Canada confirmed today that new regulations for ESC does require Shut-Off switch. You would think that Lexus would, on their own, write to owners who do not have it in older models keeping them abreast this safety issue and change and recommending discussing best practises for rocking vehicle without VSC OFF button. This is what Service Managers at Dealers should automatically be responsible for as a courtesy, when you are in there for other purposes. Unfortunately, government/self-management body enforcement is what I'm waiting for in the absence of Lexus being proactive.
I see this as a no cost alternative and it could be very important to one's safety in certain situations.

Kan-O-Z

myspouses,
I understand your concern but I have had a bit of experience of our 2007 RX350 in the snow. First of all, I would like to say that it would take a lot to really get an RX350 stuck. What I mean by this is that if the RX350 is really stuck, so are 95% of all vehicles out there. Perhaps only the most serious off-road type trucks might fare better in these conditions. I have driven in the snow with the RX350 and quite frankly when all the other front wheel drive cars were getting stuck, the RX350 drove effortlessly through the snow. I have been pretty amazed with this vehicles snow capability. Please take a look at other drivers experiences here: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=265499

I also do not understand why there would be a rocking issue without this switch. The VSC system allows for some room to 'play' before engaging. In the snow, I am able to get our RX350 to spin it's tires and the rear end to kick out slightly for a second or so before the system kicks in. For rocking purposes, this amount of 'playing' room should be more than sufficient and enough to rock the vehicle. Of course rocking is needed a lot more on 2 wheel drive cars. This is probably the reason the FWD RX350 has a Trac Off and the AWD doesn't. You have to be in some really serious snow to have all 4 wheels spinning and stuck!

Now as far as Lexus adding this feature to the 2008 models. I think this probably has to do more with Lexus meeting regulations than it does with safety. If Lexus really felt like the AWD RX350 needed a switch, why did they not provide it? They obviously felt that the FWD RX350 needed it and they did provide it! I am sure they have done tests and it was probably of minimal benefit for the AWD versions. Now that there is a regulation in place, Lexus is simply following regulations.

Now I am not saying that this regulation is useless. Once again, it probably is very useful for two wheel drive cars to have this capability. Rather than specify which cars need it and which don't, it's just easier to state that all cars need it. So long story short, the AWD RX350 now has it because of regulation, not because it was a very useful safety feature.

The RX350 has incredible snow capability and will do more in the snow than 95% of all vehicles out there including other AWD SUVs. The RX350 has full-time all wheel drive which is already superior to many other SUVs out there. Many AWD SUVs are really just 2WD above 10-15mph but not so with the RX350! Add some serious studded winter tires, and you will become unstoppable! Now go out there and enjoy your vehicle!

Kan-O-Z

myspouses

Kan-O-Z, my focus is the fiduciary responsibility for communicating when safety involved--no matter how good the product -- no matter the regulations:
a draft:
"Dear Sir:
When your engineers improve your product from a safety perspective you deserve thanks from your customers as is the case with the addition of VSA OFF switch on 2008 Lexus RX350 AWD models just introduced because people subject to sudden deep snow drifts have more control now for rocking vehicle to get unstuck--and this can be a critical manoevre where I live.

I am writing to say there is a no cost relationship-building step being missed which can destroy trust for lifetime buyers who want to be kept informed these safety-related changes and best driving practises Dealer's Service Managers can impart when customers in for normal servicing.

I recommend that a simple e-mail go out from sales explaining change for snowbelt addressees only, and the background to those changes, that can be fully discussed with Service Managers on next visit."

end-of-story, but unlikely to be accepted and it is up to Consumer Protection guardians whether enforcement is a tool here.

Kan-O-Z

I understand your concern. I think the reason that Lexus hasn't done such a thing is that they don't feel that this is a safety improvement. As I was trying to state in my last post, they did this for meeting regulations. If this is indeed the case, then why should they notify us if they really don't think that the 2008 vehicle is any better or safer in the snow than 2007?

Once again the only reason I came to this conclusion is that Lexus DID add a Trac off to the FWD version but NOT to the AWD version for 2007. Most likely their testing proved that adding Trac Off to the AWD version was not beneficial. For 2008, they were forced to add it because of regulation.

I do have a question. If Lexus had added another airbag to the RX, would you feel that they should send everyone a letter stating this? Cars now a days are improving in every which way every year and it would be difficult to constantly notify previous owners of the latest safety improvements.

Kan-O-Z

myspouses

You would not expect a notice or courtesy call for a passive safety system and you, in Virginia, would not expect to be notified for this VSA OFF switch.
I believe 2007's would have had this in full time 4WD cars but it took longer to program ECU's (based on dicsussion I've had with Toyota). And they do view 2008's as better all-round safety engineering. I'm trying to track down where industry/governments did testing, shared the data and began changing regulations.

Climate Change is going to exacerbate this high winds/quick build of large drifts across highways here west of Lake Huron and you are going to hear a lot more about this (and Driver Education, Insurance Premiums, etc. is going to change).

Kan-O-Z

I think for your peace of mind, you should try doing a test(if possible and close to your home) to see if it's possible to rock your vehicle in heavy snow. I personally think it is possible because I have gotten the wheels to spin. If the wheels are spinning, it means that rocking is possible.

As a matter of fact, have any of you seen the commercial with the RX350 in the snow. It's the one where the kids are in school and school is cancelled because of the bad snow conditions outside. The parents are supposed to come and pick up the kids from school except there are no cars because the snow is so heavy. Then you see one SUV coming, an RX350, plowing through what looks to be 1-2 feet of snow. Two kids leave and all the other kids are jealous. It's a cool commercial My point to this is, I was really watching it and you can see all 4 wheels spinning (losing traction) in the snow but the car seems to allow this behavior? Take a look next time. It's definitely a 2007 RX350 as the 2008s weren't out yet.

Now another point to note is that not all VSC systems are equal. Some may be overly active and sensitive where they do not allow ANY wheel slip. Others may allow some wheel slip and only interact when the wheel slip is obviously doing no good. I really do think Lexus has done it right as not to hinder snow capability with allowing wheel slip. This may be another reason for this regulation....because not all manufacturers may have done this right...but most probably because it applies to FWD cars.

The RX350 has been out since 2004. Toyota has been making AWD vehicles for more than 20 years. Are you telling me that for 2008, Toyota finally figured out that it would give AWD vehicles much better snow capability with a VSC disable button? I find that hard to believe.

Honestly, I would highly doubt that the 2008 vehicle can go through more snow than the 2007 vehicle. Remember rocking is useful BUT only to get you out of some bad spots. The situations you are describing with some massive drifts is not something even rocking would help out in (assuming rocking helps at all in an AWD vehicle). If you are in 2+ foot of snow and it is pushing up on the bottom of your vehicle and lifting it up, it does not matter if you are able to rock your vehicle or not, you're just flat out stuck!

If you are really concerned with this, I think you really would be better off in something more capable like an FJ Cruiser. I really don't think that a VSC switch is going to determine whether or not you get through a massive drift in your RX. At the least, make sure you purchase some Blizzaks.

Kan-O-Z

myspouses

I'll use that "Rocking is useful BUT only in bad spots" in draft #2.

myspouses

On my way to get a haircut I stopped just now next to the CAA (Equivalent to AAA) Tow Truck and he confirmed 4WD's with VSC have been useless getting unstuck and he's had to tow several. including a best friend who did not have VSC OFF switch on his new vehicle.

Kan-O-Z

Is this statement supposed to be a mockery or sarcasm? If so then keep it to yourself. I don't think this forum tolerates that sort of stuff.

Why don't you start a post about how many people have been stuck with their RX. I think you may be surprised.

What makes this tow truck driver so sure that the 4wd that he pulled out would have been just fine if it would have just had a disable switch? By the way, if you do your research, most cars DO have a disable switch, Lexus is probably the only one that doesn't. I suppose that most of the cars that the tow truck guy pulled out must have been Lexus.

Did you know that static friction has a higher coefficient than kinetic friction. This is physics my friend. What does this mean? It means that you have a better traction/grip when your wheels aren't spinning. I'm not sure why you feel that spinning all 4 of your wheels will do a lot of good for you? I hope you're not one of those people that thinks flooring your car in the snow and spinning your wheels like crazy will somehow get you out. I see people like this and all I can say is

Just a final thought. Please don't look too highly upon this disable switch. The majority of cars don't even have a stability/traction control system to begin with. So their VSC is off all the time. These cars get stuck in the snow all the time. As a matter of fact, the next time you see a car stuck in the snow...it most likely doesn't even have a stability/traction control system and guess what...it didn't help.

As someone here already mentioned, if you want something that would really help, tell them to add a center differential lock switch. With your level of worry, you really need to get another vehicle. You should get a 4Runner or FJ Cruiser and you can stop worrying about insignificant things like this disable switch.

Kan-O-Z

myspouses

Let's recap:
1.)my focus is lack of communications fm Lexus (industry may be same)
2.)why do I not think this insignificant even if not a single RX got stuck this winter, even if I'm 100% confident in my RX350 2007 without VSC OFF switch
(and am not worried or seeking replacement) b/c someone somewhere might need to know, might need clarity around lack of clarity before manual explanation that now appears in 2008 RX350's (or any other car where depowering when trying to rock a vehicle free might **** off the Driver,let alone endanger him/her).
An Example Of Why One Might Care:my north south hwy considered most dangerous winter stretch in Ontario and it is servicing commuters from Kincardine/Port Elgin for largest nuclear site in world--Bruce Power.
Perhaps police/Tow Truck Drivers/Bruce Power already know this because this winter I think there were 4instances where shift had to last 36 hours or more (not a single snowmobile could get to site). Driver training like that offered at www.carcontrolschool.com is considered a worthwhile investment in staff. If just one worker was able to extract vehicle from a drift without someone else piling into him next winter this would be worthwhile. I will continue more points tomorrw:

myspouses

3.)I take driving seriously and attempt to build knowledge/skills as my interest.
An Example: I've taken ice driving school at Steamboat, CO. (and others).
An Example: I've lead 2 Car Rallies last two Oct.'s
An Example: I've convoyed desert treks out of Riyadh, Saudi Arabia for 6 years (where you take sand ladders/tow ropes/water & fuel extras as normal course) .
Thus I have best snow tires and emergency equip. as a matter of course here (plus I'm retired) and I consider Police a very important part of community and integrated with all service clubs. They can spread the word after this board and others flush out the facts and best practises are tried out with a host of different vehicles. (I also own a Porsche 911 Turbo and know vehicle idiosyncrasies are important to survival).
4.)Let's not forget driver's responsibilities and my summation from a lack of outpouring of others is that Lexus will get away with downplaying information,
even allowing misinformation, because in genereal they do so much right.
But it is an interesting debate about whether gov't has a role from time to time to expect more; to work jointly at improving active safety; to assist in communications. Here in Ontario, it's been almost a month and self-management body for Dealers in Ontario have not responded to my initiated concern.
5.)I have pulled the ABS NO.1 (5) fuse for the VSC and can report back that everything functions as normal when fuse re-installed. This is an easy procedure once you have done it. This does not void warranty.
6.)Sorry if I miscommunicated anything, but this has been a healthy fleshing out what background others need to know before I write President Toyota.
Sometimes it is good to step into someone else's shoes and I will bring more science to the discussion if google search can find it. There is no question AAA's yearly instruction about how to rock a car says be gentle and do not spin wheels if at all possible. I's awaiting some other's comments who are winter driving instructors. I also think AAA/CAA statistics might be useful.
(my background is BSc. in Petrochemical Industry for 36 years).

Kan-O-Z

It sounds like pulling out the fuse disabled the VSC? Well that's good if it worked. Lets bring this topic to a close. I understand your concern...in that you feel that Lexus should have made all owners more aware. Once again my conclusion to this is that Lexus would have probably done so if they felt it was a real safety concern...just like how manufacturers send out notices when there is a recall and a real safety concern. I still feel that Lexus does not view this as a safety concern and that's why there is no communication from Lexus. Lexus tends to be more concerned with safety than most manufacturers and that is why they didn't even include the disable switch to begin with whereas most manufacturers do. Lexus does not want anyone to be able to accidently disable the switch and then get themselved into trouble.

Anyways, it'll be really hard to really find out what exactly the test results are and what the manufacturer really concluded. If you can, go for it. I still think that if an AWD car is stuck, the disable switch won't do anything to help you out. That's my opinion and obviously must have been Lexus's opinion at some point.

Good luck and let us know what you find out. One other thing, if the roads you travel on are one of the most treacherous in Canada, then seriously consider a very capable off road vehicle like FJ Cruiser.

Kan-O-Z