llrnzo

Our 2003 RX 300 was rear-ended while stopped at light. Impact pushed us into car in front. Insurance had no problem replacing the grill and hood--front bumper was repaired. Air bag light came on within 20 miles of leaving the body shop. Dealer reset light saying the body shop had not calibrated the steering. No problem. Light came on again after another 20 miles. Dealer diagnosed sensor in center console ECU and explained it to insurance adjuster. Insurance denied the claim as normal "wear and tear", not accident related. I just picked up the car and paid $1250.00.
I will never be convinced that is was not accident related but my question is How do I convince the Insurance Commissioner when I file my formal complaint?

I know how to figure simple odds but what is the probability of the sensor failing the same week as the accident when far less than 1% EVER fail?

If the airbag had deployed the dealer would be required to replace the sensor with the airbag. My contention is that the sensor came close to deployment and could not recalibrate itself. Does anyone have any data on these MicroElectroMechanical Systems? I know they are a microscopic mechanical element that moves in response to rapid deceleration---the change in capacitance is detected by the ECU. So unlike an engine control unit they are not pure printed circuitry. How do I tell it moved enough to require replacement?

Thank you for your thoughts.

salimshah

I would say it is time to lawyer up and let him/her sort it out.

Salim

thomas1

Maybe one of the crash sensors elsewhere is marginal. There are generally a couple beside the main computer one. They may have to be replaced. Just did this on a old 1995 Toyota camry. The sensors were located in the fenders on both sides. Then I reset the main computer.

llrnzo

Thank you Salim. I'd like to avoid lawyers as I'm already in deep enough. California Insurance Commissioner has a pretty straightforward and user friendly complaint procedure but I would like to present them with a well documented case. It took an insurance Claims Unit Manager three full days to get an opinion (directive) from Corporate advising him to deny the claim. I'm pretty sure that ECU has them spooked and they are associating it with Engine Control Units which are very expensive but pretty rock solid. They want to see a dent in the housing or something before they can consider it accident related. The dealer shop foreman believes that it is accident related but he cannot state that with absolute certainty...no smoking gun. He tells me that Lexus will not release data on what criteria deploys the air bag, other than Federal standards for 12 MPH into a brick wall or whatever. What I need is info on impacts that actuate the sensor and fall short of deployment but still compromise the integrity of the micromechanical unit.
Another factor is the nature of this impact....rear ender causing drastic acceleration for a few feet then instant complete decceleration without ever establishing a constant velocity. Does that twist these sensors up?

llrnzo

Ahh Thomas, I'm a Sacramento boy myself. Thank you for the input. I think the older sensors were of a different type and used a purely mechanical action like a ball in a gold plated tube that completed the circuit. They would have been located on the frame rails. By 2003 the industry, or at least Lexus, had gone to these Micro Electro Mechanical Systems (MEMS). They are an actual integrated circuit chip with micromechanical elements. They are housed in the ECU and located midships in the center console. The entire vehicle is subjected to the forces monitored by the Airbag Control Unit ....I've had a hard time trying to get an insurance adjuster to understand that the sensor itself doesn't have to be impacted. They really want to see crumpled metal.

salimshah

I assume that the insurance company has seen the $1250 bill. It is not a huge amount ...they should be happy that there are no medical costs .... that could have been huge.

I humbly think it is not a technical issue at stake. If it was that, the insurance company would have written you a check. No amount of wear (sharp braking) that triggers the sensor/ecu. Simple data that shows the part had to be replaced after an accident. I am willing that it will be 100% while as routine wear and tear the need for replacement is 0%.

It seems they are willing to risk $1250 and see how far you are willing to go with it. Bring in a lawyer and include court cost and your lawyer fees and that might change their attitude.

To me it seems that you will get many lawyers that would love to take up an easy case. 1/2 hr of their time, office letter head and a certified letter ought to do it.


Salim

llrnzo

True advice I think but I have an unreasonable aversion to attorneys. The last time I hired one to protect my interests it wound up costing tens of thousands of dollars and 3 years of delay. I had the pleasure of successfully testifying at his disbarment hearings and ended up doing the filings and footwork myself.

They seem to want to make it a technical issue involving ECU's. I'm having a little trouble understanding why they would risk a client with 28 consecutive years of multiple policies for an amount that is less than 2 years premium for just one vehicle. Especially when the party that rear ended us freely admitted liability and my insurance company will be reimbursed for all claims.

The claims reps and adjusters seem to get glassy eyed and turn off their logic inputs when Electronic Control Units are mentioned. They also are unable to separate an Airbag ECU from an Engine Control Unit. I know there are lots of engine control units replaced on all makes of cars due to poor troubleshooting and I think this denial is a corporate reaction to that. Lexus shop foreman explained to adjuster that air bag troubleshooting is different in that one cannot pull wires and wiggle and poke around looking for reactions. The code readout called for sensor replacement (integral to ECU) and if that didn't work then the airbag would have to be replaced and if that failed, then the wiring harness would be replaced. The uncertainty and the dollar signs prompted him to toe the corporate line without further consideration.

My insurance agent of 28 years is going to try tomorrow to get me another hearing with a different claims manager. I am trying to gather pertinent citations for that meeting if she succeeds---this is new territory for her too but we may be able to keep it in the Company. I will need even more data to file a complaint with the Insurance Commissioner. I would like to make it easy for them to understand and easy to rule in my favor.

salimshah

Do you have the part number listed on the invoice and part description? If it is listed as ECU the adjuster may not be able to relate that it is part of collision.

Salim

thomas1

You might want to consider a used ecu from a local junk yard off a car that the air bags didn't deploy. Probably less than $100 for the ecu.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/99-00-Lexus-RX-SRS-Air-Bag-Module-ECU-OEM-89170-0W040-D-5262-/231093241919?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3ALexus%7CModel%3ARX300&hash=item35ce3b083f&vxp=mtrsee way less than a 100...At least than you would know if that is really the problem. Should take less than a hour to install.

thomas1

just found this read the first page about airbags sensors could be bad without deployment.
http://www.souz-96.com/bio/Lexus/RX3...int_system.pdf
If you read the entire pdf there are several sensors in the RX300. not just the center one.

llrnzo

I want to express my appreciation for this forum, and especially Salim and Thomas1.
After Thomas posted a link for me I fished around in the sticky's and came up with the Factory Service Manual for my year and model and was able to extract citations and good general info that I was able to use to convince a fresh Claims Manager. They determined yesterday that the airbag ECU was properly diagnosed and replaced and my $1252.25 will be reimbursed. This after 3 denials.

One good thing that came of it was I gathered a lot of info and advice throughout the forums and am now planning to replace the timing belt and water pump in the near future. Now have 107000 miles and intend to drive this fine automobile another 10 years.

Thanks again. Keep up the good work.

hypervish

Glad to hear things worked out in the end!

kalali

There are a few folks here like thomas, Salim, Hyper, carguy and a few others who make up the backbone of this site. I would have never thought a car like the RX300 even had a "technical" forum but I'm glad it does. Keep up the good work. My wife keeps telling me its time to sell the RX before it starts acting up and I keep putting it off. I might give in sooner or later but when I do I'll definitely miss the group.

salimshah

It is a privilege to be useful to fellow human beings. But the list is much longer. Lexmex (Ron) and

Salim