should i get an rx?
03-05-02, 01:30 PM
#31
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Stop complaining
Willard, while it would have been good business for T/L to have confessed a problem and tried to quickly resolve it, that is always going to be the case. You have to logically consider a couple of things:
First, a recall, or something of that nature, isn't pursued in every occurance of a problem. A company, in this case Toyo Mo.Co., is a for-profit organization and is still out there to make a profit.
Secondly, and I think more importantly, the Japanese have a very different culture, specifically, corporate culture. Admitting you are wrong is NOT somthing they like to do. The same values that cause Japanese auto manufacturer's strive for high quality also cause them great shame when they are erroneous.
-Nick
First, a recall, or something of that nature, isn't pursued in every occurance of a problem. A company, in this case Toyo Mo.Co., is a for-profit organization and is still out there to make a profit.
Secondly, and I think more importantly, the Japanese have a very different culture, specifically, corporate culture. Admitting you are wrong is NOT somthing they like to do. The same values that cause Japanese auto manufacturer's strive for high quality also cause them great shame when they are erroneous.
-Nick
03-05-02, 04:37 PM
#32
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Varied subjects
"it's more due to modern electronics..(etc, etc.)"
The core operating temperature of automotive engines has increased about 20F since the 50s/60s period. This was done primarily to increase the fuel burn efficiency, but a side effect was higher efficiency in heat transfer of the radiator allowing a reduction in its size and weight. The water jacket was pressurized in order to raise the engine operating temperature without boiling.
So the lubricating oil is now subject to higher engine operating temperatures now than it was then. Can you think of any parameter with regards to engine lubricating oil that would be more important than operating temperature?
The fact that today's oils do not "sludge up" the engine interior surfaces must be more due to improvements in oil formulations over any other consideration.
"Wrong thermostat.."
I tried to relate that from my viewpoint there seemed to be no single point of failure that created engine sludge in that era, it just WAS. I can't tell you, I simply don't remember, how many engines I tore down during that period, but to me it was a large enough number, ALL with the interior sludged over, that I feel it was generic to automotive engines of that era.
"It could if you could regulate the oil's temperature"
Aren't we all assuming that the oil is sludging up due to over-heating? The only other reason I can imagine would be additional, above normal, contamination, contaminates, ingested dirt and dust, fuel burn byproducts, etc. Nothing seems to fit here except temperature.
If so then an auxillary oil cooler would reduce the "mean" oil temperature which would also lower the "peaks" at the local HOT SPOT "point", if there is one.
Also, basically, the oil temperature is already "regulated" by the engine water jacket thermostat.
"but yet you keep yours, correct?"
Those of us that already are playing russian roulette can not easily find a buyer willing to "buy" into our "game".
And now a word about Japanese societal culture.
The Japanese avoid shame at all costs, mostly by denying, NEVER acknowledging, that a mistake has been made.
The core operating temperature of automotive engines has increased about 20F since the 50s/60s period. This was done primarily to increase the fuel burn efficiency, but a side effect was higher efficiency in heat transfer of the radiator allowing a reduction in its size and weight. The water jacket was pressurized in order to raise the engine operating temperature without boiling.
So the lubricating oil is now subject to higher engine operating temperatures now than it was then. Can you think of any parameter with regards to engine lubricating oil that would be more important than operating temperature?
The fact that today's oils do not "sludge up" the engine interior surfaces must be more due to improvements in oil formulations over any other consideration.
"Wrong thermostat.."
I tried to relate that from my viewpoint there seemed to be no single point of failure that created engine sludge in that era, it just WAS. I can't tell you, I simply don't remember, how many engines I tore down during that period, but to me it was a large enough number, ALL with the interior sludged over, that I feel it was generic to automotive engines of that era.
"It could if you could regulate the oil's temperature"
Aren't we all assuming that the oil is sludging up due to over-heating? The only other reason I can imagine would be additional, above normal, contamination, contaminates, ingested dirt and dust, fuel burn byproducts, etc. Nothing seems to fit here except temperature.
If so then an auxillary oil cooler would reduce the "mean" oil temperature which would also lower the "peaks" at the local HOT SPOT "point", if there is one.
Also, basically, the oil temperature is already "regulated" by the engine water jacket thermostat.
"but yet you keep yours, correct?"
Those of us that already are playing russian roulette can not easily find a buyer willing to "buy" into our "game".
And now a word about Japanese societal culture.
The Japanese avoid shame at all costs, mostly by denying, NEVER acknowledging, that a mistake has been made.
Last edited by willard west; 03-05-02 at 04:41 PM.
03-05-02, 05:43 PM
#33
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Re: Varied subjects
Originally posted by willard west
And now a word about Japanese societal culture.
The Japanese avoid shame at all costs, mostly by denying, NEVER acknowledging, that a mistake has been made.
And now a word about Japanese societal culture.
The Japanese avoid shame at all costs, mostly by denying, NEVER acknowledging, that a mistake has been made.
03-05-02, 11:39 PM
#34
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No....
You said corporate culture...
I said societal culture.
Enron had BAD corporate culture....
fasterthanu, are you still listening?
I said societal culture.
Enron had BAD corporate culture....
fasterthanu, are you still listening?
Last edited by wwest; 03-05-02 at 11:42 PM.
03-06-02, 03:57 AM
#35
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Re: No....
Originally posted by wwest
You said corporate culture...
I said societal culture.
Enron had BAD corporate culture....
fasterthanu, are you still listening?
You said corporate culture...
I said societal culture.
Enron had BAD corporate culture....
fasterthanu, are you still listening?
03-06-02, 08:35 AM
#36
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Re: Varied subjects
Originally posted by willard west
The core operating temperature of automotive engines has increased about 20F since the 50s/60s period. This was done primarily to increase the fuel burn efficiency, but a side effect was higher efficiency in heat transfer of the radiator allowing a reduction in its size and weight. The water jacket was pressurized in order to raise the engine operating temperature without boiling.
The core operating temperature of automotive engines has increased about 20F since the 50s/60s period. This was done primarily to increase the fuel burn efficiency, but a side effect was higher efficiency in heat transfer of the radiator allowing a reduction in its size and weight. The water jacket was pressurized in order to raise the engine operating temperature without boiling.
Okay so what
So the lubricating oil is now subject to higher engine operating temperatures now than it was then. Can you think of any parameter with regards to engine lubricating oil that would be more important than operating temperature?
Yes, the electronics/sensors regulating air/fuel/ingition timing and emissions.
The fact that today's oils do not "sludge up" the engine interior surfaces must be more due to improvements in oil formulations over any other consideration.
Yup, I've said that.
I tried to relate that from my viewpoint there seemed to be no single point of failure that created engine sludge in that era, it just WAS. I can't tell you, I simply don't remember, how many engines I tore down during that period, but to me it was a large enough number, ALL with the interior sludged over, that I feel it was generic to automotive engines of that era.
Then why bring it up? I agree with you. Engines of that era have no bearing on today's engines. So bringing it up is a moot point.
Aren't we all assuming that the oil is sludging up due to over-heating? The only other reason I can imagine would be additional, above normal, contamination, contaminates, ingested dirt and dust, fuel burn byproducts, etc. Nothing seems to fit here except temperature.
Again, that's what I've been saying all along. It's also what the letter is aluding to also.
If so then an auxillary oil cooler would reduce the "mean" oil temperature which would also lower the "peaks" at the local HOT SPOT "point", if there is one.
Yes it would. But if you cool it too much, the oil will be operating at it's "cold" weight and not it's "warm" weight. ie.. 10W30(cold/warm)
Also, basically, the oil temperature is already "regulated" by the engine water jacket thermostat.
You are forgetting that the engine's temp is regulated by the thermostat temp setting. No amount of additional cooling will change that. The only way to change the engine's operating temp would be to cool so much as to not allow the thermostat to open. However that is NOWHERE near the engine's peak operating efficency. In fact, if you constantly ran the engine at this temp, you would probably ruin the engine much quicker.
"but yet you keep yours, correct?"
Those of us that already are playing russian roulette can not easily find a buyer willing to "buy" into our "game".
Those of us that already are playing russian roulette can not easily find a buyer willing to "buy" into our "game".
Total BS. The resale value of the Lexus line is one of the best in the industry. It's never been better. You could sell your car in a heatbeat for a great price. I should know. I just bought an used RX300 and have been researching the prices for 6 months. Not only is the resale great, it's great despite the flood of 99' lease returns. It was even better before these came out.
And now a word about Japanese societal culture.
The Japanese avoid shame at all costs, mostly by denying, NEVER acknowledging, that a mistake has been made.
The Japanese avoid shame at all costs, mostly by denying, NEVER acknowledging, that a mistake has been made.
03-06-02, 09:29 AM
#37
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more....
"Engines of that era have no bearing..."
Regretably the only picture of have of the seriousness of the level of sludging I saw in that era is in my "mind's eye". But in my minds eye I have this vision of a engine's innards being completely sludged, gunked, over, typically more than a 1/4 inch but less than 1/2 inch..
The "bearing" of this for today is even with all of that sludge those engines continued to run and run and run. So my conclusion is that something other, more than, the formation of sludge is at work here.
1. Something has to wrong about this engines that causes sludge to form to begin with.
2. Sludge formation alone, would not normally lead to a complete engine failure.
"Then why bring it up? I agree with you."
YOU are likely not the only one reading these posts.
"cooling too much.."
I suspect that might be a practical impossibility, but credit where credit is due, it would not be a good idea to operate the engine with its lubrcating oil temperatures outside of their recommended operating temperatures.
Having said that, better too LOW than too HIGH !!
Agreed?
Oh...minor point...
"10W30(cold/warm)"
10W30(warm/cold)
90W is heavy axle grease.
"The resale value of the Lexus line..."
Is a "marketing line", fallacy, that was established back in the very beginning.
If you go back and look at the introductory model pricing from say, 89, to 95, you will see that the 90 represented an absolutely OUTSTANDING value, overall, in comparison to the 95. Lexus has followed this pricing "model" from the get go. Each succeeding year's model is "up-priced" just enough to make the previous year's model a decent trade in value. When you're in a market with overall sales margins of upwards of 30% that's how you can manipulate the public's mind.
I think I paid about $42k for my 92, to get a comparably equipped 2002 would be well over $65K, and that ain't just inflation of the dollar.
"comment on Lexus QC..."
Absolutely NOT, their manufacturing QC is likely the best in the world today. Lexus manufacturing has achieved PERFECTION, every one of their vehicles are totally identical, right down from the tiniest, or most blatent, to the "largest", most blatent, potentially HAZARDOUS design FLAW.
Engineering design "QC" leaves a LOT to be desired.
Where is the LS430 phone?
How about the RX Nav updates?
The RX Nav firmware is so flawed as to make it untrustworthy and therefore useless.
Suspension interference on the rear of the RX (&HL) prevents the use of snowchains? ON an SUV ??!!
They recommend snow chains be used only on the front of the Rx and HL, while well knowing that this configuration can potentially be extremely HAZARDOUS.
The windshield defog/demist functionality is virtually non-existent below 50F, and TOTALLY non-existent below 35F !!
The Climate control design engineers were never made aware of the radiant heating/cooling effects on the human body?
The small size and very dense and complex design of the A/C evaporator core causes it to act as a SPONGE and retain large amounts of condensate for days on end.
Mold and mildew growth promotion, potentailly TOXIC mold, within the A/C evaporator core? Even Ford and GM already have programs in place to combat this. It was brought to Lexus attention back in 93 and they still continue to ignore the issue.
Random, or seemingly spontaneous, intermittent, HAZARDOUS fogging over of the interior surface of the windshield in colder climates due to the inordinate level of condensate retention.
Sludging issue, just another in a long series of design engineering mistakes for which no one is willing to stand up and take responsibility for. IF it doesn't EXIST, then where's the SHAME?
Regretably the only picture of have of the seriousness of the level of sludging I saw in that era is in my "mind's eye". But in my minds eye I have this vision of a engine's innards being completely sludged, gunked, over, typically more than a 1/4 inch but less than 1/2 inch..
The "bearing" of this for today is even with all of that sludge those engines continued to run and run and run. So my conclusion is that something other, more than, the formation of sludge is at work here.
1. Something has to wrong about this engines that causes sludge to form to begin with.
2. Sludge formation alone, would not normally lead to a complete engine failure.
"Then why bring it up? I agree with you."
YOU are likely not the only one reading these posts.
"cooling too much.."
I suspect that might be a practical impossibility, but credit where credit is due, it would not be a good idea to operate the engine with its lubrcating oil temperatures outside of their recommended operating temperatures.
Having said that, better too LOW than too HIGH !!
Agreed?
Oh...minor point...
"10W30(cold/warm)"
10W30(warm/cold)
90W is heavy axle grease.
"The resale value of the Lexus line..."
Is a "marketing line", fallacy, that was established back in the very beginning.
If you go back and look at the introductory model pricing from say, 89, to 95, you will see that the 90 represented an absolutely OUTSTANDING value, overall, in comparison to the 95. Lexus has followed this pricing "model" from the get go. Each succeeding year's model is "up-priced" just enough to make the previous year's model a decent trade in value. When you're in a market with overall sales margins of upwards of 30% that's how you can manipulate the public's mind.
I think I paid about $42k for my 92, to get a comparably equipped 2002 would be well over $65K, and that ain't just inflation of the dollar.
"comment on Lexus QC..."
Absolutely NOT, their manufacturing QC is likely the best in the world today. Lexus manufacturing has achieved PERFECTION, every one of their vehicles are totally identical, right down from the tiniest, or most blatent, to the "largest", most blatent, potentially HAZARDOUS design FLAW.
Engineering design "QC" leaves a LOT to be desired.
Where is the LS430 phone?
How about the RX Nav updates?
The RX Nav firmware is so flawed as to make it untrustworthy and therefore useless.
Suspension interference on the rear of the RX (&HL) prevents the use of snowchains? ON an SUV ??!!
They recommend snow chains be used only on the front of the Rx and HL, while well knowing that this configuration can potentially be extremely HAZARDOUS.
The windshield defog/demist functionality is virtually non-existent below 50F, and TOTALLY non-existent below 35F !!
The Climate control design engineers were never made aware of the radiant heating/cooling effects on the human body?
The small size and very dense and complex design of the A/C evaporator core causes it to act as a SPONGE and retain large amounts of condensate for days on end.
Mold and mildew growth promotion, potentailly TOXIC mold, within the A/C evaporator core? Even Ford and GM already have programs in place to combat this. It was brought to Lexus attention back in 93 and they still continue to ignore the issue.
Random, or seemingly spontaneous, intermittent, HAZARDOUS fogging over of the interior surface of the windshield in colder climates due to the inordinate level of condensate retention.
Sludging issue, just another in a long series of design engineering mistakes for which no one is willing to stand up and take responsibility for. IF it doesn't EXIST, then where's the SHAME?
03-06-02, 09:59 AM
#38
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Whatever.
1) You have no idea what is causing the problem. Using a 60's V8 for other than a MINOR reference is NOT even a close comparasion.
2) Credit where it's do? Ah, I can say "redesign the whole engine". Will you give me credit for that too? The point is your idea won't work for reasons clearly stated and not refuted by yourself. If you REALLY wanted to lower the engine temp, just install a thermostat that opens at a lower temp. The Lexus oem cooling system is good enough to keep the engine at let's say, 20 deg cooler. THAT IS IF THAT WOULD SOLVE ANYTHING.
2a) Thanks for the oil clarification. Again, the main point is not refuted so I assume you agree.
3) Don't cloud the issues. You stated RESALE VALUE. The overwhelming fact of the matter is that the RX300 has a great resale period. Again this point is not refuted by yourself. So the reason you gave for NOT selling your RX for another is wrong. So just sell it if you do not like it. Thus there is nothing holding you back correct??
4) Quality? You mean somone like yourself WOULDN'T find something to complain about WITH any vehicle you own? I visit 2-3 other vehicle boards. There are complaints about EVERY car.
So in your opinion, which maker has the best engineering and customer service for the same relative price???
Shame? Where do you guys get this Japanese business mentality?? If you guys are trying to use traditional Japanese business practices to try to explain this sludge problem, IMHO you are an idiot. It's a BUSINESS folks. And what is the current state of the Japan economy?? It's in the crapper. It's a good think that Toyota corp. is one of the strongest(if not they strongest) auto maker in Japan. That Japan zen business crap went out the window after the bubble burst in the early 90's. Plus since this is a usa problem where vehicle claims would be held in an us court, it's Lexus usa corporate lawyers handling it.
1) You have no idea what is causing the problem. Using a 60's V8 for other than a MINOR reference is NOT even a close comparasion.
2) Credit where it's do? Ah, I can say "redesign the whole engine". Will you give me credit for that too? The point is your idea won't work for reasons clearly stated and not refuted by yourself. If you REALLY wanted to lower the engine temp, just install a thermostat that opens at a lower temp. The Lexus oem cooling system is good enough to keep the engine at let's say, 20 deg cooler. THAT IS IF THAT WOULD SOLVE ANYTHING.
2a) Thanks for the oil clarification. Again, the main point is not refuted so I assume you agree.
3) Don't cloud the issues. You stated RESALE VALUE. The overwhelming fact of the matter is that the RX300 has a great resale period. Again this point is not refuted by yourself. So the reason you gave for NOT selling your RX for another is wrong. So just sell it if you do not like it. Thus there is nothing holding you back correct??
4) Quality? You mean somone like yourself WOULDN'T find something to complain about WITH any vehicle you own? I visit 2-3 other vehicle boards. There are complaints about EVERY car.
So in your opinion, which maker has the best engineering and customer service for the same relative price???
Shame? Where do you guys get this Japanese business mentality?? If you guys are trying to use traditional Japanese business practices to try to explain this sludge problem, IMHO you are an idiot. It's a BUSINESS folks. And what is the current state of the Japan economy?? It's in the crapper. It's a good think that Toyota corp. is one of the strongest(if not they strongest) auto maker in Japan. That Japan zen business crap went out the window after the bubble burst in the early 90's. Plus since this is a usa problem where vehicle claims would be held in an us court, it's Lexus usa corporate lawyers handling it.
03-06-02, 11:07 AM
#39
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Creative??
I'm not sure if we're not BEYOND being creative or even informative to our mostly silent audience here but...
"MINOR reference"
You're not getting my POINT !!
Many engines of the era I have discussed had TONS of sludge internally and yet continued to perform quite adequately that way. This is not a MINOR point. Virtually NONE of today's engines are subject to this effect, yet somehow "out of the past" Lexus is making it happen again, but this time apparently with engine failures directly related to the sludging effect, or at least seemingly so.
Yet another point you are not getting !!
I have NEVER made reference to (directly) lowering the operating temperature of the engine nor its cooling water jacket, what I have suggested is an auxilary lubricating oil cooler. In its simplest form that would be an air/oil heat exchanger, oil flowing through the core and airflow over the outside of the core.
And yes that would have some effect, overall, on the engine and water jacket temperatures but the water jacket thermostatic valve would likely minimize that effect by further closing up (less water flow to be cooled by the radiator) and thus still mainatining the engine temperature well within the range of the thermostatic valve control tolerances.
I would imagine most engine's lubricating oils operate somewhere very close to the temperature set by the water jacket thermostat except for the possibly minor cooling gained from the oil pan surfaces exposed directly to outside airflow.
And yet again, who has said I didn't/don't like my RX?
Maybe I should say it this way, If I ran the Lexus engineering design staff I would be listening very closely to customer complaints and then asking my staff to work very dilligently to overcome the valid ones. AND I would go OUT OF MY WAY, as the manager, to accept full and complete responsibility for not getting it right the first time.
"Japanese business mentality..."
It is a societal aspect of the Japanese culture, they simply put too much SHAME on teh shoulders of someone who is seen as a FAILURE, even in a small or trival fashion. Throughout the world people who develop and explore, exploit, NEW ideas experience failure over and over again, yet they go back to the task, work table and try it, something all over again.
That is an aspect, "failure, but try again", that seemingly is more suppressed in the japanese culture than any other place in the world.
And finally...
I have been in a US court of law up against Lexus, and I can tell you that it varies very widely from what one can expect going up against a US corporate entity. None of the documents you might need to prove your case will be available in the US.
"MINOR reference"
You're not getting my POINT !!
Many engines of the era I have discussed had TONS of sludge internally and yet continued to perform quite adequately that way. This is not a MINOR point. Virtually NONE of today's engines are subject to this effect, yet somehow "out of the past" Lexus is making it happen again, but this time apparently with engine failures directly related to the sludging effect, or at least seemingly so.
Yet another point you are not getting !!
I have NEVER made reference to (directly) lowering the operating temperature of the engine nor its cooling water jacket, what I have suggested is an auxilary lubricating oil cooler. In its simplest form that would be an air/oil heat exchanger, oil flowing through the core and airflow over the outside of the core.
And yes that would have some effect, overall, on the engine and water jacket temperatures but the water jacket thermostatic valve would likely minimize that effect by further closing up (less water flow to be cooled by the radiator) and thus still mainatining the engine temperature well within the range of the thermostatic valve control tolerances.
I would imagine most engine's lubricating oils operate somewhere very close to the temperature set by the water jacket thermostat except for the possibly minor cooling gained from the oil pan surfaces exposed directly to outside airflow.
And yet again, who has said I didn't/don't like my RX?
Maybe I should say it this way, If I ran the Lexus engineering design staff I would be listening very closely to customer complaints and then asking my staff to work very dilligently to overcome the valid ones. AND I would go OUT OF MY WAY, as the manager, to accept full and complete responsibility for not getting it right the first time.
"Japanese business mentality..."
It is a societal aspect of the Japanese culture, they simply put too much SHAME on teh shoulders of someone who is seen as a FAILURE, even in a small or trival fashion. Throughout the world people who develop and explore, exploit, NEW ideas experience failure over and over again, yet they go back to the task, work table and try it, something all over again.
That is an aspect, "failure, but try again", that seemingly is more suppressed in the japanese culture than any other place in the world.
And finally...
I have been in a US court of law up against Lexus, and I can tell you that it varies very widely from what one can expect going up against a US corporate entity. None of the documents you might need to prove your case will be available in the US.
Last edited by willard west; 03-06-02 at 11:14 AM.
03-06-02, 12:39 PM
#40
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Again, you you actually think a 60's V8 is built to the same tolerances as a mordern efficent V6 Toyota engine. Hell an old V8 could run on 6 cylinders and on 1/2 of it's oil gallies. Get it? Mordern engines can't afford that type of sloppy tolerences. So again, your reference is minor at best.
You suggested an oil cooler. I said, fine if you could regulate the temp. Why?? Because you don't want the oil temp to be too low(below optimum). You went in w/ the cooling system, not me. The only reference we agreed on as to the possible problem is engine temp correct?? So let's lower the engine temp via the thermostat. Or run synthetics that are much less sludge prone in the first place.
But then again, why an oil cooler at all if as you clearly state, "the oil's temp is regulated by the cooling system".
Oh, I'm sorry. I've misunderstood you. YOU LIKE YOUR RX300!? But yet you cannot recommend one, tell others to buy something else, list a 2 page paragraph on the faults etc....
Then you implied that you WOULD sell if not for the resale value correct? But when it's stated the resale value is good, now you like you RX?
This is a pretty amusing statement. It's close to the "If I were president....." speeches. Considering Lexus is one of the top contenders in the JD Powers consumer service polls, how do you know they ARE NOT doing exactly what you are stating?? Because of your individual complaints??
Another amusing statement. What would you prefer? The domestic view on manufacturing?? Which is "put the product out even though it has problems and let the consumer troubleshoot it". If anything, the Japanese have always strived to improve their product. Why do you think the Japanese have one of the shortest model cycles in the industry??
So you battled Lexus in court. Still you were in an USA court right? Which rules applied? Japan or USA. Did you go against Lexus corporate Japan or USA?
You suggested an oil cooler. I said, fine if you could regulate the temp. Why?? Because you don't want the oil temp to be too low(below optimum). You went in w/ the cooling system, not me. The only reference we agreed on as to the possible problem is engine temp correct?? So let's lower the engine temp via the thermostat. Or run synthetics that are much less sludge prone in the first place.
But then again, why an oil cooler at all if as you clearly state, "the oil's temp is regulated by the cooling system".
Oh, I'm sorry. I've misunderstood you. YOU LIKE YOUR RX300!? But yet you cannot recommend one, tell others to buy something else, list a 2 page paragraph on the faults etc....
Then you implied that you WOULD sell if not for the resale value correct? But when it's stated the resale value is good, now you like you RX?
Maybe I should say it this way, If I ran the Lexus engineering design staff I would be listening very closely to customer complaints and then asking my staff to work very dilligently to overcome the valid ones. AND I would go OUT OF MY WAY, as the manager, to accept full and complete responsibility for not getting it right the first time.
This is a pretty amusing statement. It's close to the "If I were president....." speeches. Considering Lexus is one of the top contenders in the JD Powers consumer service polls, how do you know they ARE NOT doing exactly what you are stating?? Because of your individual complaints??
That is an aspect, "failure, but try again", that seemingly is more suppressed in the japanese culture than any other place in the world.
Another amusing statement. What would you prefer? The domestic view on manufacturing?? Which is "put the product out even though it has problems and let the consumer troubleshoot it". If anything, the Japanese have always strived to improve their product. Why do you think the Japanese have one of the shortest model cycles in the industry??
So you battled Lexus in court. Still you were in an USA court right? Which rules applied? Japan or USA. Did you go against Lexus corporate Japan or USA?
03-06-02, 02:25 PM
#41
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Last Post..
How do YOU know that some of those failed T/L engines weren't using top grade synthetic oils, and maybe even changing it every 5K miles, AND having it done at the dealer?
The oldest of "these" engines is only about three years, so how do you know that EVERY T/L engine of this type isn't going to fail from (flow restriction due to) sludging at some point in its (ten year?) performance life?
Okay, let's assume that the engine thermostat opens fully at 180 degrees F. Most of the engines internal working parts, along with the lubricating oil, will soon (an hour?) be operating at a temperature dictated, mostly, by the thermostat's temperature rating. You pick your own mean temperature value that you think the engine's lubricating oil would be operating at after an hour, okay?
Now let's start routing, bypassing, that very same lubricating through an air/oil heat exchanger wherein the airflow temperature is never more than 110F
The oil exiting the heat exchanger and then re-entering the engine oil flow distribution path WILL BE COOLER THAN THE OIL just leaving the engine and ENTERING THE HEAT EXCHANGER.
The mean temperature value of the "bulk" oil "mass" will be reduced, without significantly affecting the "mean" temperatrue of any other engine operating components.
Is there by any chance someone nearby where you live can read and comprehend the english language? Let me know how to contact this person and I will gladly pay to have them explain to you what I have written.
DUMB AND DUMBER !!
(If I'm stupid enough to continue with this, that is.)
The oldest of "these" engines is only about three years, so how do you know that EVERY T/L engine of this type isn't going to fail from (flow restriction due to) sludging at some point in its (ten year?) performance life?
Okay, let's assume that the engine thermostat opens fully at 180 degrees F. Most of the engines internal working parts, along with the lubricating oil, will soon (an hour?) be operating at a temperature dictated, mostly, by the thermostat's temperature rating. You pick your own mean temperature value that you think the engine's lubricating oil would be operating at after an hour, okay?
Now let's start routing, bypassing, that very same lubricating through an air/oil heat exchanger wherein the airflow temperature is never more than 110F
The oil exiting the heat exchanger and then re-entering the engine oil flow distribution path WILL BE COOLER THAN THE OIL just leaving the engine and ENTERING THE HEAT EXCHANGER.
The mean temperature value of the "bulk" oil "mass" will be reduced, without significantly affecting the "mean" temperatrue of any other engine operating components.
Is there by any chance someone nearby where you live can read and comprehend the english language? Let me know how to contact this person and I will gladly pay to have them explain to you what I have written.
DUMB AND DUMBER !!
(If I'm stupid enough to continue with this, that is.)
03-06-02, 02:56 PM
#42
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Re: Last Post..
Originally posted by willard west
[B]How do YOU know that some of those failed T/L engines weren't using top grade synthetic oils, and maybe even changing it every 5K miles, AND having it done at the dealer?
[B]How do YOU know that some of those failed T/L engines weren't using top grade synthetic oils, and maybe even changing it every 5K miles, AND having it done at the dealer?
I DON'T. But none of the articles I've read so far indicated that they have used synthetics. The oil changes are debatable. The letter clearly states if the changes were done at the dealer, then the warranty holds. So isn't it safe to assume that is not an issue?
[The oldest of "these" engines is only about three years, so how do you know that EVERY T/L engine of this type isn't going to fail from (flow restriction due to) sludging at some point in its (ten year?) performance life?
Well the issue of these engines were also with the camry and sienna etc.., which has been in service for now also. So I have to believe that the V6 in question does in fact have experienced a long successfull service life correct? So, the fact remains out of the TOTAL amount of T/L engines in question(which covers how many??), we only have about 3000 on document. See what % of the total amount of V6s T/L already existing does 3000 come out to??? Since this engine has an existing track record, doesn't that % seem reasonable for the future??
In fact, how do you know ANY ENGINE from ANY maker won't experience the same???? That's right, you don't. No one does.
For your oil cooler thing. Did I say it wouldn't cool the oil??? No I didn't (who is dumber now?) I said, w/o some type of temp control, you can effectively regulate the oil temp. At what point does the cooling stop????? Why do think those H/D trucks w/ tranny coolers have to block their coolers every winter?? duh.
Again, I ask the question, IF oil temp is the issue, why not use oil that's MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better in resisting high temps and sludge formation?? It's at least as(if not more effective) than your "solution"
It's funny you call me dumb. What have we solved so far?
1) Your V8 example was a poor one
2) You ridicule the RX300 but you still claim to like it. You will not sell it because if it's "bad resale" despite the fact that the resale is one of the best in on the market.
3) You think the Japanese have bad customer service and engineering when it fact the customer service has been rated very high and their engineering is also top notch.
4) Your oil cooler solution is the end all fix. When in fact you can't even acknowledge anyone else's thoughts. *cheap shot* Why hasn't Lexus retrofitted this on all affected V6 engines? *cheap shot*
Why because we BOTH don't know what the hell is the problem and all solutions are blind guesses at best. sheesh!
03-06-02, 05:35 PM
#43
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Well..
Dealer service, warranty holds...
How could they ever possibly say anything but, and expect to be in business tomorrow...
Maybe my fault... But I thought that I had read somewhere that T/L has said, or someone else proposed, that they think the problem might be related to a minor change they made in these previously existing engine designs in the 99 timeframe in order to further improve the emissions numbers.
Was I, am I wrong on this?
If not, then the sludge "clock" has only been running for about three years. Oh, and where is the 3000 failure number coming from? T/L? And we do trust them to be truthful about this, right?
Trucks? Tranny cooler?
Well, sorta.
I don't know if I have ever seen an over the road truck that needed a tranny cooler, most have manual trannies. But, for those that do, might, they likely use the same method of tranny fluid cooling that our cars do, a small fluid line looped through the radiator core to cool the tranny fluid.
I don't actually know why they block the airflow through the radiator in COLD weather unless it is the same reason I did that in my 63 T-bird in the winters of Montana and North Dakota.
Even with no fluid flow, movement, through the thermostat the water has a very good heat transfer, heat "flow", charactoristic and thus it will readily "wick" the cold back into the engine along the water "pipe".
So my guess would be that they do that to prevent the water, coolant, within the radiator core from getting so very cold that it begins to backflow (not the water itsself, the COLD) and cool that engine below its optimal operating temperature.
"At what point does the cooling stop?"
And who cares? As I said, "damage" will only result from the oil going over-temp, slightly "under-temp" oil might hurt the gas mileage but will certainly not damage the engine. Colder, thicker lubricating oils yeild better lubrication between moving parts, the downside being only less efficiency of operation.
How could they ever possibly say anything but, and expect to be in business tomorrow...
Maybe my fault... But I thought that I had read somewhere that T/L has said, or someone else proposed, that they think the problem might be related to a minor change they made in these previously existing engine designs in the 99 timeframe in order to further improve the emissions numbers.
Was I, am I wrong on this?
If not, then the sludge "clock" has only been running for about three years. Oh, and where is the 3000 failure number coming from? T/L? And we do trust them to be truthful about this, right?
Trucks? Tranny cooler?
Well, sorta.
I don't know if I have ever seen an over the road truck that needed a tranny cooler, most have manual trannies. But, for those that do, might, they likely use the same method of tranny fluid cooling that our cars do, a small fluid line looped through the radiator core to cool the tranny fluid.
I don't actually know why they block the airflow through the radiator in COLD weather unless it is the same reason I did that in my 63 T-bird in the winters of Montana and North Dakota.
Even with no fluid flow, movement, through the thermostat the water has a very good heat transfer, heat "flow", charactoristic and thus it will readily "wick" the cold back into the engine along the water "pipe".
So my guess would be that they do that to prevent the water, coolant, within the radiator core from getting so very cold that it begins to backflow (not the water itsself, the COLD) and cool that engine below its optimal operating temperature.
"At what point does the cooling stop?"
And who cares? As I said, "damage" will only result from the oil going over-temp, slightly "under-temp" oil might hurt the gas mileage but will certainly not damage the engine. Colder, thicker lubricating oils yeild better lubrication between moving parts, the downside being only less efficiency of operation.
03-07-02, 10:33 AM
#44
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Wow. So when Lexus talks about the problem it's BS but when it comes to a solution, you seem to have everything figured out. If you refuse to believe everything Lexus is talking about as far as the problem, how can you even start to comment on a solution?
So are you going to install an oil cooler?
So are you going to install an oil cooler?
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