Bob GX

I'm looking for inputs on how others would handle this problem.

My 2002 RX had trouble with front brake rotors warping, and was in for work at 9K, 18K, and 27K miles. Each time the rotors were either ground or replaced. The dealer didn't charge for the first two, but charged me $310 the last time for the work on the rotors and new pads since he said the original ones were about 50% worn.

When I got home and looked at the invoice, I noticed it said '...repairs per TSIB'. I called the service department to get more info on the TSIB, but the service writer was never 'in' and didn't return any of my calls.

Now, a year later, I found a web site that has TSIBs, and looked at the ones for my RX, and found one for 'Front Brake Vibration'. It matches the repair done to my car, and indicates this repair is covered by the Lexus Warranty if the repair is made during the warranty period, which mine was. I sent a letter to the dealer with copies of the TSIB & invoice, and requested they bill Lexus under the warranty and refund the money I was charged. Several weeks have passed, and I've heard nothing from them.

I am puzzled why they would charge me for something that could have been covered by warranty in the first place, and I'm irritated that they won't respond to my phone calls or letter. I hate confrontation, and bought the Lexus believing I could expect fair treatment, and not be hassled like this. There is only one Lexus dealer I can reasonably go to, and if I push this issue I will no longer feel like a 'valued customer' when I have to take the car for service to the same people who have handled this situation this way.

I am seriously considering getting rid of this car and buying a different brand, to avoid having to deal with this kind of treatment. What would others do in this situation? Is there a way to get this handled without becoming confrontational with this dealer?

Thanks for any helpful thoughts you can share.

Fern

Bob Gx,

don't let this one bad experience get you down on the brand. I will provide further input on what I mean in an updated post later on this week or earlier next when I receive a response from Lexus Canada on my particular problem.

In the meantime, I think resolving your problem is simple.
Document the people you dealt with at your dealership and send correspondence to Lexus Corporate (with explicit instuctions that you want a written response within a time frame) and ask that you be refunded the payment you made which should have been warranty work. At this point you may want to include copies of the invoice and confirmation of your payment.

Note: You may want to call Lexus Corporate and get the name of the "Head warranty Administrator" before sending correspondence and use the rifle approach rather than the shotgun approach... I mean pinpoint a specific individual... no fire arms please!

Indicate in your letter that your payment was in good faith and without the knowledge that there was a TSIB for such a problem.

Keep the tone of the letter professional but assertive, with the suggestion that you will not take NO for an answer.

I have posted before and will post again:
"never take no from a person that never had the authority to say yes in the first place."

Good luck and keep us posted on the outcome.

Cheers,
Fern

hksimpson

This could be an honest mistake -- call them every day until you reach the service manager, explain the situation and tell them you want the refund issued immediately. If that person says no, speak to the person in charge of that location and demand if from them.

If they don't resolve it, call Lexus corporate and demand they take care of it.

Tammy

Check to insure the lug nuts are correctly torqued.

Lexmex

I had my front rotors machined about two weeks ago at the place that I showed where I washed the engine and bottom of my RX. Second time this year. Not to bad, but you know the use I get out of my rotors and brakes at the track.

However in Bob GX's case, I find it kind of odd that they needed to be played with at all by Lexus that often.

I believe the last time I took my RX300 up to Lexus in December 2004, they were correct and I could see the burn marks on the front rotors and I had them replaced along with all the brake pads. Similar price to what Bob GX mentioned. In that case, those rotors were the same OEM ones I had one since the car was new. I had the rear OEM ones machined at the same time, and they are still on my RX today.

Still, I must agree 100% a TSIB is a TSIB.

parula

Tammy, I have an '03, do you think lug nut torque is important to prevent this break issue, I am not having any problems with brakes at 36k but am curious how this could cause such a problem? All my service has been at dealers except for a few oil changes - so far my brakes are great. Same on an earlier '99.

Tammy

I used to have rotor warp problems at first. Rotors turned twice. Pads replaced once. Shims and anti-rattle clips replaced.

The lug nuts were always too tight when the vehicle was returned.

The measured torque was up to 95+ Ft lbs.

Never a mention to anyone, saving face, I just loosened each lug one at a time and re-torqued each with a good quality torque wrench.

Have not had any warping since setting the torque to 75 Ft Lbs. (dry) or 70 Ft Lbs (wet) with the lug nut threads greased prior to reinstalling.

[The factory specification is 76 Ft Lb. (dry)]

I remove the four wheels every three months for service and inspection.

Bob GX

I agree with the comment that it was unusal for this car to have this problem repeat so often. The service writer told me it was because of the way I drive the car. I've had a lot of cars, and I drive them all pretty much the same, and never had this kind of problem on any other vehicle - including another RX300 and two GX470s.

The TSIB has a new part number for the brake pads, and I beleive it is a different material to help dissipate heat more effectively. It has been 20K miles since the 3rd repair when the pads were replaced, and the problem has not come back, so I beleive the problem has been corrected, which is why Lexus released the TSIB with the new parts. And I beleive Lexus felt it was a design issue and wanted it corrected under warranty, even though brakes are normally considered a 'wear item'.

This gets to the core of my heartburn - the dealer chose to make this an issue of how I drive the car, even when Lexus issued the TSIB indicating this should be fixed under warranty. The dealer's refusal to answer my phone calls or respond to the letter is both puzzling and irritating. I will work this issue up through the Service Manager, the General Manager, and then on up to Lexus. By the time I'm through with this I figure I'll no longer feel like I want to have to deal with this dealer, and they are the only dealer in the area. It's a mystery why they want to lose a customer (I've bought 4 vehicles from them) instead of just covering it under the warranty the way Lexus indicated they should.

As for the torque on the lug nuts - I typically rotate my own tires and always use a torque wrench. When the dealer has worked on the car, I have to use a cheater to loosen the lug nuts, indicating they are over tightening them. But I think the real problem was the material in the brake pads.

parula

I need to use the dealer, though I guess I could pick up a torque wrench, imo they should just follow the manufacturer's specs for those prices. Much thks

What is the symptom of worn rotors, bumpy stops?

Lexmex

You don't need to take it to a dealer. The place where I do my alignments does it for cheapo. Some gas stations that have a service place can do it, too.

Best way I can tell to know there is a problem with the rotors is to go down a slope or go up to high speed like on a highway and the push on the brakes slowly toward the floor and if you have an issue you should feel vibration.

When you actually go to the machine the rotors, if it rotor is warped enough, after they make their first pass on the on the rotors you should be able to see a raised portion where the warpage was. Sometimes, called burn marks.

parula

Mex, thks, I am just talking about reinstalling wheels after rotations. Surely if overtorquing is an issue Lexus willl work to ensure dealers follow the specs. (I have never had to align a Lexus or for that matter a 20 year old Honda - tires on all are wearing perfectly - the only way I know to tell if alignment is needed.) Good, that's what I thought on detection, so far good here.

anulex

i just had my warped rotors fixed. before i had it done, I checked to see if it was covereved by a warranty. IT wasnt. WAS IT SUPPOSE TO BE?

HarrierAWD

The re-occuring warped rotor problem is most likely caused by over-tightening the lug nuts. My Lexus dealer routinely torque them to over 150 ft/lbs. (The spec is 76 ft/lbs.) After I did my 60K, I had to re-torque the lug nuts myself.

It's funny that CostCo and Discount Tire would use torque wrench to spec, yet Lexus dealers use impact gun - one heavy setting for all models.

Idiots.

Bob GX

anulex:
My general understanding is that brake pads and rotors are conisdered to be wear items, and not covered by warranty. My experience was warped rotors 3 times within the first 27 K miles. Never had this problem on any other car, so I was inclined to see it as a problem with the parts, while my dealer wants to see it as the way I drive the car.

The TSIB I found applies to RX 300 built in 2002 and 2003 that are still within the Lexus warranty period. It states that if the customer complaint is that the 'front brakes are vibrating', the repair is covered under the warranty. The repair is to resurface the rotors and replace the pads with a new design pad (plus some other small parts).

My invoice from the repair makes reference to a TSIB, but the dealer wouldn't show me a copy, so it took me about a year to find one. I don't understand why they would want to charge me, instead of covering it under the warranty. There must be some logic here, but they won't answer my phone calls or letters so I'm still in the dark.

You should ask your dealer about the TSIB and whether it applies to your car or not. I'd be interested if you would post back what you find out.

Good luck!
Bob

Nauticalx

OK guys, I want to chime in withmy opinion which is- I don't think that overtightening the lugs can warp the rotors. The wheel has a solid portion that butts against the flat face of the rotor. When you overtighten these are simply metal on metal and the only thing that suffers is the bolt which stretches and will ultimately break if greatly overtorqued. As the two flat surfaces pressing against eachother- its not going anywhere and the rotor surface surrounds this area and is unaffected. Correct me if I'm wrong somebody with more knowledge of this but I'm pretty sure this is not going to warp you; and if it did, it would be warped from the instant you drive it from the service center.