tea

imo, the new C63 looks way better than both the RCF, M4, and any other car in its class

Levi68

The front is good, but the rest of the car is too soft and not aggressive. No wide rear fenders. Maybe the C Coupé will look better, and hopefully have a betting interior display, like the AMG GT. But I don't know how will the C AMG manage to be fast with so much torque and 265 rear tires.

ISF001

I would add even the front looks typically Mercedes--non-aggressive and really like the rest of the Mercedes stable. It is not stirring and it is far from exotic looking.

The RCF is the best looking and most radical design in the class. The Mercedes looks like a daily "work" and not "play" car.

chilipalm

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/201...-and-info-news

Looks pretty ho hum to me. I'd have to look at the back to tell the difference from the standard C class. And what's up with the ipad mini being stuck on the dash?

Mr Bond

C63 is a luxury racer in my opinion. It represents a classic brand with a long history of making elegant and serious cars. Another example is Aston Martin or Jaguar. A design like Lexus has would kill those brands in a year or two.

Lexus can freak out as much as they want to, nobody really cares. There is no tradition or history that could be damaged here. "love it or leave it " is probably the best expression for the new Lexus design.

05RollaXRS

Lexus might not have a long history, but a history starts from somewhere and lineage will only build when it starts. Lexus started in 1989 and immediately had Mercedes and BMW scrambling as Lexus reinvented what a Luxury car segment means to customer with LS400.

Fast forward nearly 20 years, I remember reading the SLS AMG chief engineer interview and when asked about the yet to be released LFA, he made fun of it clearly mocking Lexus for attempting to build a supercar without any pedigree or experience. That LFA is not worthy of being compared to the SLS AMG. Yet, in the very first ever try, Lexus drops another sledgehammer with the Lexus LFA. Pretty much nothing BMW or Mercedes ever put into production could compare to the LFA. Even German reviewers were struggling to defend Mercedes as the best efforts ever of SLS AMG comparing directly as it fell terribly short compared to LFA in just about everything other than being able to match it in straight line speed/acceleration. AutoZeitung Germany conceded by saying "LFA simply dominates [the SLS AMG] in the way of a precision oriented F1 racing car".

Case in point, history, lineage, prestige and tradition are great to provide a nostalgia factor to loyal customers and new perspective customers by making reminisce the glory of what Mercedes has accomplished over the 100 years. However, once you look beyond that and dive into the substance, that is where the car needs to stand on its own merit, qualities and attributes. Lineage, history and heritage are great bragging rights, but a car needs to stand on its own merit to justify its value.

For apples to apples, when you compare Lexus to Acura or Infiniti, Lexus has accomplished a lot in a very short period of time. Acura and Infiniti have existed longer than Lexus, but Lexus has a far more rich and illustrious history with far bigger accomplishments and achievements.

The last straw for Lexus was "boring cars", which Lexus has been addressing head-on. I believe most people looking cross shopping C63 AMG vs RC-F even if they put lots of weight on the lineage, heritage and nostalgia factor, simply cannot deny the charm, charisma and excitement factor of a car like RC-F.

ISF001

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Bond View Post

C63 is a luxury racer in my opinion. It represents a classic brand with a long history of making elegant and serious cars. Another example is Aston Martin or Jaguar. A design like Lexus has would kill those brands in a year or two.

Lexus can freak out as much as they want to, nobody really cares. There is no tradition or history that could be damaged here. "love it or leave it " is probably the best expression for the new Lexus design.



The C63 when last pit against the M3 and the ISF led to interesting results. The M3 and ISF had identical track times while the C63 finished seconds behind.

I more view the C63 as an overpowered exec sedan. It's styling is nothing exceptional. It's got a big engine and a German name. Here too reliability must enter into the discussion. My friend has paid dearly over the year's trying to maintain the integrity of his black stallion.

obturator

05RollaXRS,

That was the best argument against heritage I've ever read. Bravo.

begone

Rc f looks way better. This Mercedes looks too soft.

billdwong

Whoa. I get it, you're a Lexus fanboy who posts to this board a million times a day. But M-B's quality has gotten pretty good, regardless of your "friend".

http://autos.jdpower.com/ratings/201...ss-Release.htm

ISF001

That's me...informed Lexus fanboy. Let me help you out here:

For a second consecutive year, Porsche ranks highest in initial quality among all nameplates, with a score of 74 PP100. Following Porsche in the rankings are Jaguar (87 PP100), LEXUS (92 PP100) and Hyundai (94 PP100).

No Merc...

Ah, you are who...with your total of 2 posts in Club Lexus?

See more at: http://www.jdpower.com/ja/node/4991#....xkTtki92.dpuf

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

Guys let's stop the personal commentary and keep the discussion on the vehicles.

TheBatman

History and tradition have extremely limited value nowadays. The culture has radically changed. The American automakers had the same flawed thinking 30 years ago about history and tradition. They believed that there was no way Americans would abandon domestic brands en masse for Japanese vehicles. Now look at what's happened in the last decade alone.

Sure, there is equity in a German brand that plays into public perception. But that is changing as the new generations become the income earners. The Germans are wising up to this by making a new entry level luxury segment slotting below the C class, 3 series, and A4. Their success in this market segment proves that history and tradition still have value if they're diluted down to V6 Honda Accord prices. And this dilution of the brand can only go so far before people start realizing that history and tradition is just all in their heads and they're purchasing an inferior product.

Mr Bond

I agree with you on that. But history and tradition often comes with something else : experience.

Why does Mb S class outsell cars like LS, BMW 7 or Audi A8 by at least 10 times around the world. Its not like its cheaper or something. The answer is simple , its the best car in the world. Why is it the best car ? Experience.

Let´s go to sports cars.

Why does BMW M3 or AMG C63 outsell IS-F and maybe RC-F ? Customers are fooled by the brand history ? Well, if history in reality doesn´t mean so much it simply means.... ooouuchhh I think its better ( at least for the atmosphere is this thread ) that we stick to the history and heritage theory.

No, honestly. History and tradition of an premium product can´t be ignored. It equals knowledge. Apparently, the sales of MB A and B class has not affected the S class at all. Much cheaper products is a different story. My neighbour drives a VW 1,4 diesel with like 75 hp He does not care a bit about history and tradition when it comes to cars, he wants to get to work every day at as a low cost as possible. But he actually resembles the average car buyer. You buy what you need, nothing more, nothing less.

billdwong

Thanks for the link.

JD Power's "Vehicle Dependability" (the one I linked to) survey reflects the reliability of cars as they age as measured by the reported number of issues within a single year. The 2014 survey accounts for MY2011 cars.

The "Initial Quality" survey to which you linked reflects the number issues reported with brand new cars (i.e. within 90 days of delivery).

I would think the former would be a better measure of "reliability", unless you're planning on buying a new car every 90 days. For instance, you may notice that Jaguar, a brand that is noted for fantastic detail work (but is not generally considered a highly reliable marque) is second on the IQ survey. To your point, Lexus certainly does well on any quality or reliability survey.

Who am I? Just somebody who's curious what folks think about cars. I don't own a Mercedes (and never have), and I've never owned a Lexus. I'm nobody special, I guess, but I certainly don't think that I would represent myself as superior simply if I were to account for every third post to a section of an internet forum.