gyrase321

Do you have any data to support this (i.e. the assertion that most people in this segment don't keep their cars for long)? I'm genuinely curious, since I'm in this segment, and I don't know anyone in my circle that churns M3s and M4s like you suggest, despite the annual incomes we command (north of $300k, medical profession).

rominl

iTrader: (4)

no manufacturers release date on lease vs purchase so there is no data to show, but it's not hard to gather information from forums (granted on cars like these, it's more likely that owners are on forums).

if you spend time on m3post or mbworld, you can see that a lot of people are leasing their m and amg, because they ask a lot about lease rates. and then usually 2.5-3 years after new car release, you see a flood of them in the used market / cpo. those are clear signs of lease.

whereas here on clublexus, i see majority being purchase on the isf and now rcf. now of course we know bmw and mb sell a lot more m and amg than lexus on f, so we can see the trend.

outside of that, if i call myself a data point, i had a m3 and i know quite a lot of people with expensive cars including m and amg. i hardly know any who keep their cars. even on their "normal" cars they lease.

on the flip side, imho, after 5-6 years of a car release, you see a pretty big change in the ownerships on forums. m and amg you start to have more "kids" (no offense) with the cars. but on isf for example? i see a better group. that's another sign on ownership (purchase vs lease)

DougHII

Too funny that your rather benign statement in response to a review required some debate or challenge . . . Gotta love the Internet.

I, however, tend to agree with your earlier statement and the statement to which you initially responded that doctors are generally not dumb enough to purchase an M series after the warranty expired. Why would anyone unless that is all one could afford or it is just a weekend car and the economics of BMW lease rates versus buying used notes makes it a pretty easy decision when factoring in costs of ownership.

I have represented, raced with and taught a lot of doctors at DE events and racing schools over the years. They generally don't have some 5 + year old M series, although there are perhaps a lot of GPs or nonspecialized that don;t make anywhere near the $ 300k our friend above says he and his buddies make . . .

ISF001

REVIEW: The Lexus RC F Is Here And It's Taking NO Prisoners — Can It Trump The Audi RS5 AND BMW M4 Though?

http://www.autospies.com/news/REVIEW...-Though-84963/

It's hard to believe that Toyota's Lexus division was only producing luxury vehicles not too long ago.

It was a company that was known for its extraordinarily bland products since inception.

They were as reliable as could be and they drove quite nice, if I am honest. But if you had even the slightest bit of desire to make your heart race, these were not the cars for you. That's not actually a bad thing, but the market spoke and Lexus decided to listen — it's a good thing too, THINK: how many M Sport and AMG package vehicles do you see today?

This all changed with one letter, "F."

With the invention of the four-door IS F, the company took the red pill and crossed into wonderland. Then came the painstakingly developed LFA. The halo supercar was maligned by many, but if you ask me it is still one of my most memorable vehicle's I've had the chance to drive. After that came a slew of F Sport products and packages for mainstream Lexus vehicles. Soon though, the same question repeatedly kept coming into the fore: how will Lexus follow up the IS F?

This is how. The all-new RC F. Sure, it lacks the extra two doors found in the IS F, but it still boasts a 5.0-liter V8 good for 467 horsepower and 389 lb.-ft. of torque. Set to go up against the likes of the Audi RS5, BMW M3/M4 and all-new Mercedes-AMG C63, it's playing in a competitive set.

Upon taking delivery of the RC F, I gave it a proper inspection. Up until this point I had seen it all over the auto show circuit and, frankly, I liked it. Its styling isn't for the faint of heart and there's zero question that when you walk away you will feel something.

Personally, I think its wide mouth, honeycomb front grill is fantastic, and I appreciate the bulging hood and tiny greenhouse. Around the back, the quad-tipped exhaust looks properly executed unlike that **** poor stacked job found on the IS F that famously had two "dummy" exits. The stance of the RC F is literally perfect. If you really want to geek out, check out the detail of the LED headlights. You can look at them for probably about an hour and be entertained.

On the inside, you slip into racing-style seats with a one-piece seat back and cut outs for a four-point harness should you want to try and do your best racecar driver impression. Much like the Ford Mustang's Recaro seats, these are a happy mix between supportive and comfortable. Perfect for GT cruising. Being a taller lad I would have appreciated thigh support, which is also missing on the likes of the BMW M3/M4's seats, but it's not a big deal.

Elsewhere inside you'll notice something funny. As a bit of an obsessive compulsive it's annoying to see such a lack of cohesive design. The displays, switchgear and HVAC all have different fonts. While the interior on my test model features a great looking two-tone color combo with the plastics being black and the seats white/grey, for no seemingly good reason there's a touch of Alcantara on top of the instrument panel. Why? I'll never know. It's not that I am a bore, it's just a matter of execution. At this price point, every thing should be slick and not a mish mosh.

A new touch for Lexus vehicles is that the latest interiors now ditch the "mouse" and are now equipped with a simple touch pad. One cool thing about the pad is it actually provides haptic feedback so you're not just aimlessly wandering with the damn thing. I found it relatively pleasant to use except when you have to scroll down in a long list. You either have to swipe down and deal with monumental lag, or direct the arrow to the graphical user interface's (GUI) sidebar to click down the list. Pretty annoying when in the world of COMAND and iDrive this all just works by using a rotary dial.

Aside from the aforementioned nit picks though, it is a pretty nice place to be. Plenty of room up front, not so much in the rear but that wasn't expected anyway. Given the thickness of the front seat backs, it's really a two plus none.

So, how's it drive? If I had to describe it in one word, I would chose "impressive." This isn't a huge shock to me because when I drove the original IS F I recall thinking "this isn't THAT much different than an M3." While brand snobs turned up their nose — and I am sure they will this time too — these Lexus F cars are great driving machines.

Let's take it from the top. The V8 motor propels the RC F to 60 mph in 4.4 seconds and is paired up with an eight-speed automatic transmission. Unlike the IS F that felt like it had a cog too many, eight speeds now feels pretty normal. I have to admit though, I didn't find myself using anything higher than sixth while doing the work myself. In Drive you can lumber along just as though you're in any other Lexus product. While the IS F had a tendency to jump around from gear to gear, the RC F makes an excellent cruiser. It does the dirty work while you don't even notice.

It's another story when you move the shifter closer to you. That's because the shifts have a bit of hesitation that results in a slight jolt on upshifts. It really makes you wish that Lexus opted for the ZF eight-speed automatic that's fast and smooth when you decide to shift it yourself. I will say though that Lexus really got it right on the downshifts though. They're essentially perfect and, my word, they sound aggressive when you're getting on it.

After spending time with it, I achieved 14 mpg. No, I didn't use ECO mode.

Working your way through some switchbacks will have you pretty happy for two reasons. First, the steering. Surprisingly, in the RC F there's a little bit of feel to it and it has a really nice weighting to it. It's on the lighter side. When compared to what Audi and BMW are doing with their steering racks, I have to say this one is unquestionably better. The two Germans — when dialed up to their most sporting settings — just feel numb and artificial as they're not direct. The RC F, on the other hand, is a bit more delicate

Second, the suspension is very well tuned. Unlike the original IS F that felt like it was a Mexican jumping bean that just threw down a Red Bull, the RC F feels just right. It's a bit on the stiffer side but even when equipped with 19-inch wheels, bumps and potholes didn't become overly intrusive. It feels taut and quite German.

What also feels German is its weight. Stepping on the scale, the all-new F car weighs in a bit over 3,950 pounds. This is about, give or take, 400 pounds on the M4 and you'll notice it. While the Bavarian feels more tossable, this car is distinctly more planted and surefooted a la the Audi RS5 — the RS weighs about the same. Even though you'll feel a bit more of the RC F's heft in corners, the car doesn't feel like a porker due to the way Lexus tuned its steering. Granted, we are only talking about driving it on the road as I didn't benefit from a track experience, as I did with the M3/M4.

If I had to name my favorite aspect of the RC F though, it's the sound. Who knew that with cars like the IS F, LFA and now RC F, that Lexus would be an automaker that knew how to deliver an aural experience for an enthusiast? Although it sounds exactly the same as the original IS F, that isn't a bad thing. It's a very brutal V8 sound, especially when the dual air intake opens up at about 3,500-4,000 RPM. That's when you hear the Lexus give you a full-out scream and it's just addictive to listen to.

Although I've been a fan of well-tuned six-cylinder notes for as long as I can remember, I have to say that this surely trumps the M3/M4's sound. That goes for the RS5's V8, too.

Long live this Lexus V8!

So, at the end of the day how does the RC F shake out? Much like a relationship in your 20s, it's complicated. I'll do my best to really paint you an accurate picture.

If you're open-minded and looking into two door sports cars in this price range, of course you'll drive the Audi RS5, BMW M4, Lexus RC F and maybe even the outgoing Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Coupe. For me right now, the Audi and Mercedes are outdated and not even playing this game anymore.

I would, however, tell shoppers to drive both the M4 and RC F. Personally, if I had to choose this is how it would boil down:

- If I were deciding between an M4 with DCT and an automatic RC F, I'd go with the RC F every time.
- If I were deciding between a manual M4 versus the automatic RC F, I'd go with the M4 every time.

This is due to the nature of BMW's DCT, which I found quite annoying off the track.To me, the RC F is a better road-going car over the DCT M4; however, if you gave me a shift-it-yourself M4 that would be the one to have as you have all the control in the world.


The Good:
- Killer V8 sound
- The RC F's steering is weighted much more delicately than what's found in the Audi RS5 and BMW M4
- Comfortable interior for front seat occupants


The Bad:
- Confusing interior design that is not slick and well executed
- It does have an extra 400 pounds on the benchmark, which makes it more of a GT sports car than an all-out sports car ready for track duty
- Useless rear seat


The Lowdown:
To me the Lexus RC F is a very compelling sports car in its price range. Although it weighs quite a bit more over the BMW, I have to say that as a road car I thoroughly enjoyed its driving dynamics with a toothy smile. For many, this car will not meet expectations due to the fact it is a Lexus product and its styling is flamboyant. For those of you that aren't open minded or are a brand snob, I strongly urge you to reconsider.

gyrase321

Thanks for explaining that. I am still not sold on the assertion that people in this "segment" (a.k.a. high income types such as doctors, which was the example cited in the preceding post) don't keep "performance cars like M3s and M4s for too long." There may be a conflation of two different and separate assertions here. First, there's the assertion that "high income types own performance cars". The second assertion is that "people that own performance cars don't keep them for too long." These may not even be the same sets of people.

The first assertion isn't necessarily true for most high income people anyway. In fact, from my own experience and that of my peers who have high incomes, we don't own performance cars. We own more mundane luxury cars (I had an x5 for 7 years which was traded in for an RX 350 that my wife uses while I drive a 4 runner to work currently; waiting for the GSF to come out though). The most common cars I see in the doctors' parking lot are Camrys, Accords, and Fusions. There are several MB E-class, 5 series, A6, and LS cars that show up from time to time. An ENT guy has a 911. But for the most part, the majority of cars are run of the mill $20k to $30k sedans and SUVs that average Americans drive. From discussions with colleagues, majority of these cars are bought, not leased.

Which brings me to the second assertion. High income professionals like physicians are too busy and tired to even find time to go to a track. Hence the limited appeal of performance cars that they won't be able to take full advantage of. They want cars that are luxurious, yes, but also durable and competent...not fragile toys that break down and are expensive to fix. They want keepers, not vehicles that are churned every 2 or 3 years thru leasing. It's just too much of a hassle to go through these negotiations over and over again.

DougHII

Lol, purchasing a car every 3 years is too much of a hassle and takes too much time out of a doctor's life to go through? Don't have enough time to enjoy their cars or go to tracks? Huh???

No doubt some docs are conservative and don't care about cars. So are some lawyers, pilots, business owners and brokers, but that is not what we are talking about. Conservative types buying Accords don't care about Ms whether they are new or 10 years old.

I am envious of doctor's schedules compared to mine, yet I found time to race professionally and club, NASA, SCCA . . . My 3 partners for 24 hour stuff were docs. I caravanned with several docs to Porsche Club races for years. In fact, one of them, Dr. Robert Sauter, lost his life on the track in Arizona about 15 years ago.

Doctors are well represented at driving schools and on the race tracks throughout the country. I have instructed a butt load of them over the years. I also used to ravel to Bali, CR, PR and SA to surf with a doc buddy. Lol, docs have lives too!

gyrase321

"Docs are well represented at driving schools and race tracks" is the fallacy of selection bias at work. Sure, docs have hobbies, and the docs that go to tracks get in touch with track instructors. But that doesn't mean most docs are even remotely interested in tracking their cars. You just happen to have met the ones that have that interest.

oohpapi44

iTrader: (1)

Not sure I get the point of where you're going with this? You started this convo as a rebuttal to a rebuttal from within 'your small circle' but now have an issue with a rebuttal to your rebuttal of a rebuttal because it involves his 'circle'...

What are we talking about? Oh, this is yet another convo bashing the Germans about reliability issues for a vehicle not old enough to be out of warranty. Wonder why these 'concerns' seem to pop up over here WAY more than they do on the Bimmer forums.

Must be a lot of dumb people out there is what I would have included in my response to the internet fan boy (Nostradimus) who posted the response. But then again, why bother?

gyrase321

Sorry, can't help you there. You just have to read the relevant part of the thread again. Don't know where you got the idea about "bashing German reliability" . We were talking about why high income people don't necessarily buy or lease high end performance cars.

Gojirra99

I've heard from BMW dealers here that over 80% of all their BMW sales were leases, and I 've heard a salesman told me that even 10 years ago ...

rominl

iTrader: (4)

when i leased my m3 i had a chat with the finance manager too. he also commented that most people lease their cars, and he's always frustrated with all the lease returns and how to sell them. i think that says a lot.

in any case i think we are drifting away again from this thread, but in no way have i ever said that rich people have fancy nice cars. i never associate car values with personal wealth. i was only saying my experience with rich people who are into cars and how they deal with their car purchases / leases.

and i won't even bother to talk about those who actually track their cars. truth is, most of these people they never track their cars, it's just a status symbol for them. a lot of them don't even know how to drive fast correctly. i will leave the very tiny group of tackers to DougHII

ISF001

followtheF

lol..

DougHII

For goodness sakes, I never insinuated that all or most docs go the track. I was just stating I that I know many very successful docs that have time to go track events in response to a statement they don't even have time to mess with buying a new car every 2 or 3 years.

DougHII

Yep, BMW offers strong lease residuals that make price of entry into brand reachable to the masses. Shorter term lease finessed by lower notes also keep the customer coming back for new cars with relative frequency.