RC F automotive reviews thread
10-30-14, 08:36 PM
#406
As an ISF owner and owner of E46/E36 M3's, I put my money back on BMW in this generation. The overall build quality of BMW has improved dramatically in the last few iterations and with it being boosted, will open up lots of tuning options.
I doubt I will ever own another Lexus again. Corporate customer service is awful.
Disclaimer: I have a M4 on order right now :P
I doubt I will ever own another Lexus again. Corporate customer service is awful.
Disclaimer: I have a M4 on order right now :P
10-30-14, 09:02 PM
#407
Lexus Test Driver
this comparo also shows the differences between NA and turbocharged engines. NA is linear, very predictable, therefore smooth on the track - hence less fuss on the steering inputs. Then you have a highly turbocharged engine that has less predictable, non linear power. When the boost comes on, the power dramatically rises and you can easily lose grip - hence the fussy steering inputs the driver had to apply. Car like this requires much more skill and more effort to track. You'll get beat up on a track day.
Its funny how earlier in the video one of the reviewers says the M4 oversteer is easy to control, its so balanced and controllable. Then in the hot lap, the veteran driver is thrashing the wheel like hes cutting down a tree.
Its funny how earlier in the video one of the reviewers says the M4 oversteer is easy to control, its so balanced and controllable. Then in the hot lap, the veteran driver is thrashing the wheel like hes cutting down a tree.
While powering out of the corners, the oversteer situation is in part due to the unpredictable throttle response where there is no response at all in the initial 1 - 2 inch of throttle travel and then suddenly getting hit by torque overwhelming the rear wheels.
10-31-14, 01:10 AM
#408
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Yeah, the more I think about it, the more "holes" I see in the review. Many other reviewers have glowingly praised the RC-F's sharp throttle response and drawn contrast with the M4's turbo lag (albeit, less than most turbo charged cars due to smaller size turbos in M4).
While powering out of the corners, the oversteer situation is in part due to the unpredictable throttle response where there is no response at all in the initial 1 - 2 inch of throttle travel and then suddenly getting hit by torque overwhelming the rear wheels.
While powering out of the corners, the oversteer situation is in part due to the unpredictable throttle response where there is no response at all in the initial 1 - 2 inch of throttle travel and then suddenly getting hit by torque overwhelming the rear wheels.
The M3/M4 will likely always be the better track car and will appeal very strongly to those who like to go out on the track. The M3/M4 is clearly set up to have an oversteer bias. Having started off with a Fox body Mustang as my first car I bought myself, I can understand the fun factor of being able to do snap oversteer drifts at will. But most of the time, what I want more is a well behaved daily driver that is capable enough to take into the mountains to do some corner carving on lightly traveled roads, and fast enough to feed my acceleration wants.
I'd rather have a well controlled vehicle that tends towards understeer that you really have to push into an oversteer situation - because most of the time, that is the safer setup to have for general daily driving, and while I'm perfectly comfortable catching a well balanced car in a drift, it's not something I want to deal with unless I actually WANT to deal with it.
I'm not in the position to be able to buy a $75k car to just be a track toy (and if I were, it'd probably be something more along the lines of a Porsche Cayman) - it's got to be a daily driver first and foremost. Frankly, it will probably never see the track (I've only gone a handful of times in almost 30 years of driving mostly performance cars). Probably my main concern at this point would be how intrusive the stability control is while set to a Sport+ type setting (while from the videos, it looks like the limits before intrusion are pretty high, I am concerned with the fact that a few reviewers have noted that once it DOES intervene, it does so by completely cutting the throttle...which is VERY irritating to me - I sold my 370Z less than a year after I bought it and ate the depreciation hit because it did the same thing, which meant to do any spirited driving, I had to completely disable the nannies, which I'd rather not do except on a track, and the threshold for intervention when the traction control was on was low enough that I hit it nearly daily taking turns onto onramps and the like). BMWs, on the other hand, I've had no problem with - when the nanny intervenes, it regulates the throttle, rather than cutting it completely, which is much less noticeable). But if the limits are as high as they appear to be in the videos, I likely won't run into that (looked to me like you actually had to put it into a sustained powerslide for the TC to cut the throttle).
And that engine note - I don't find the M3/M4s note to be unattractive at all - I-6s have always had a really nice smooth sound to me....but the sonorous rumble of that V-8 is pure aural sex. I could definitely live with that emanating from the engine bay on a daily basis (and my wife agrees with me, so I've already won that battle).
Last edited by SDEngineer; 10-31-14 at 01:18 AM.
10-31-14, 06:33 AM
#409
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I'm not sure whether it would have anything to do with unpredictable torque. I haven't driven an M3/M4 yet, but my experience with the N55 engine (I have a 335i) is that BMW turbos have very very little lag and highly predictable torque - though admittedly, the torque is pretty much ALWAYS there - but aside from getting out of the hole in 1st, you'll never have the RPMs down low enough that you won't already be in the fat part of the torque curve. But the mags are definitely leaning towards the "but it doesn't have the track abilities of the M3/M4" conclusions - which to many people may not actually be a bad thing.
The M3/M4 will likely always be the better track car and will appeal very strongly to those who like to go out on the track. The M3/M4 is clearly set up to have an oversteer bias. Having started off with a Fox body Mustang as my first car I bought myself, I can understand the fun factor of being able to do snap oversteer drifts at will. But most of the time, what I want more is a well behaved daily driver that is capable enough to take into the mountains to do some corner carving on lightly traveled roads, and fast enough to feed my acceleration wants.
I'd rather have a well controlled vehicle that tends towards understeer that you really have to push into an oversteer situation - because most of the time, that is the safer setup to have for general daily driving, and while I'm perfectly comfortable catching a well balanced car in a drift, it's not something I want to deal with unless I actually WANT to deal with it.
I'm not in the position to be able to buy a $75k car to just be a track toy (and if I were, it'd probably be something more along the lines of a Porsche Cayman) - it's got to be a daily driver first and foremost. Frankly, it will probably never see the track (I've only gone a handful of times in almost 30 years of driving mostly performance cars). Probably my main concern at this point would be how intrusive the stability control is while set to a Sport+ type setting (while from the videos, it looks like the limits before intrusion are pretty high, I am concerned with the fact that a few reviewers have noted that once it DOES intervene, it does so by completely cutting the throttle...which is VERY irritating to me - I sold my 370Z less than a year after I bought it and ate the depreciation hit because it did the same thing, which meant to do any spirited driving, I had to completely disable the nannies, which I'd rather not do except on a track, and the threshold for intervention when the traction control was on was low enough that I hit it nearly daily taking turns onto onramps and the like). BMWs, on the other hand, I've had no problem with - when the nanny intervenes, it regulates the throttle, rather than cutting it completely, which is much less noticeable). But if the limits are as high as they appear to be in the videos, I likely won't run into that (looked to me like you actually had to put it into a sustained powerslide for the TC to cut the throttle).
And that engine note - I don't find the M3/M4s note to be unattractive at all - I-6s have always had a really nice smooth sound to me....but the sonorous rumble of that V-8 is pure aural sex. I could definitely live with that emanating from the engine bay on a daily basis (and my wife agrees with me, so I've already won that battle).
The M3/M4 will likely always be the better track car and will appeal very strongly to those who like to go out on the track. The M3/M4 is clearly set up to have an oversteer bias. Having started off with a Fox body Mustang as my first car I bought myself, I can understand the fun factor of being able to do snap oversteer drifts at will. But most of the time, what I want more is a well behaved daily driver that is capable enough to take into the mountains to do some corner carving on lightly traveled roads, and fast enough to feed my acceleration wants.
I'd rather have a well controlled vehicle that tends towards understeer that you really have to push into an oversteer situation - because most of the time, that is the safer setup to have for general daily driving, and while I'm perfectly comfortable catching a well balanced car in a drift, it's not something I want to deal with unless I actually WANT to deal with it.
I'm not in the position to be able to buy a $75k car to just be a track toy (and if I were, it'd probably be something more along the lines of a Porsche Cayman) - it's got to be a daily driver first and foremost. Frankly, it will probably never see the track (I've only gone a handful of times in almost 30 years of driving mostly performance cars). Probably my main concern at this point would be how intrusive the stability control is while set to a Sport+ type setting (while from the videos, it looks like the limits before intrusion are pretty high, I am concerned with the fact that a few reviewers have noted that once it DOES intervene, it does so by completely cutting the throttle...which is VERY irritating to me - I sold my 370Z less than a year after I bought it and ate the depreciation hit because it did the same thing, which meant to do any spirited driving, I had to completely disable the nannies, which I'd rather not do except on a track, and the threshold for intervention when the traction control was on was low enough that I hit it nearly daily taking turns onto onramps and the like). BMWs, on the other hand, I've had no problem with - when the nanny intervenes, it regulates the throttle, rather than cutting it completely, which is much less noticeable). But if the limits are as high as they appear to be in the videos, I likely won't run into that (looked to me like you actually had to put it into a sustained powerslide for the TC to cut the throttle).
And that engine note - I don't find the M3/M4s note to be unattractive at all - I-6s have always had a really nice smooth sound to me....but the sonorous rumble of that V-8 is pure aural sex. I could definitely live with that emanating from the engine bay on a daily basis (and my wife agrees with me, so I've already won that battle).
10-31-14, 08:12 AM
#410
Lexus Test Driver
BMW fan Sutcliffe (AutoCar) had already said, the RC-F "monster throttle response" is completely on a different level than that of the M4. My point is, this review did not talk about the huge advantage like the other reviews have, of the throttle response advantage RC-F has.
You could see Randy Pobst keep referring to the RC-F engine as "race motor". The sound and throttle response are the two things where RC-F has a big advantage.
I have driven a 335 6 speed with sports package on it for 1 day and the turbo lag was very very noticeable to me. I could really feel how there was no response up until it hit a certain rpm when suddenly you are hit by a wall of torque.
It was by no means bad like some of the other older turbo cars like the STI, Supra etc. that require about 4000 rpm for the turbo to hit full boost, but at least to me, I could really feel the turbo lag in the 335i.
You could see Randy Pobst keep referring to the RC-F engine as "race motor". The sound and throttle response are the two things where RC-F has a big advantage.
I have driven a 335 6 speed with sports package on it for 1 day and the turbo lag was very very noticeable to me. I could really feel how there was no response up until it hit a certain rpm when suddenly you are hit by a wall of torque.
It was by no means bad like some of the other older turbo cars like the STI, Supra etc. that require about 4000 rpm for the turbo to hit full boost, but at least to me, I could really feel the turbo lag in the 335i.
I'm not sure whether it would have anything to do with unpredictable torque. I haven't driven an M3/M4 yet, but my experience with the N55 engine (I have a 335i) is that BMW turbos have very very little lag and highly predictable torque - though admittedly, the torque is pretty much ALWAYS there - but aside from getting out of the hole in 1st, you'll never have the RPMs down low enough that you won't already be in the fat part of the torque curve. But the mags are definitely leaning towards the "but it doesn't have the track abilities of the M3/M4" conclusions - which to many people may not actually be a bad thing.
The M3/M4 will likely always be the better track car and will appeal very strongly to those who like to go out on the track. The M3/M4 is clearly set up to have an oversteer bias. Having started off with a Fox body Mustang as my first car I bought myself, I can understand the fun factor of being able to do snap oversteer drifts at will. But most of the time, what I want more is a well behaved daily driver that is capable enough to take into the mountains to do some corner carving on lightly traveled roads, and fast enough to feed my acceleration wants.
I'd rather have a well controlled vehicle that tends towards understeer that you really have to push into an oversteer situation - because most of the time, that is the safer setup to have for general daily driving, and while I'm perfectly comfortable catching a well balanced car in a drift, it's not something I want to deal with unless I actually WANT to deal with it.
I'm not in the position to be able to buy a $75k car to just be a track toy (and if I were, it'd probably be something more along the lines of a Porsche Cayman) - it's got to be a daily driver first and foremost. Frankly, it will probably never see the track (I've only gone a handful of times in almost 30 years of driving mostly performance cars). Probably my main concern at this point would be how intrusive the stability control is while set to a Sport+ type setting (while from the videos, it looks like the limits before intrusion are pretty high, I am concerned with the fact that a few reviewers have noted that once it DOES intervene, it does so by completely cutting the throttle...which is VERY irritating to me - I sold my 370Z less than a year after I bought it and ate the depreciation hit because it did the same thing, which meant to do any spirited driving, I had to completely disable the nannies, which I'd rather not do except on a track, and the threshold for intervention when the traction control was on was low enough that I hit it nearly daily taking turns onto onramps and the like). BMWs, on the other hand, I've had no problem with - when the nanny intervenes, it regulates the throttle, rather than cutting it completely, which is much less noticeable). But if the limits are as high as they appear to be in the videos, I likely won't run into that (looked to me like you actually had to put it into a sustained powerslide for the TC to cut the throttle).
And that engine note - I don't find the M3/M4s note to be unattractive at all - I-6s have always had a really nice smooth sound to me....but the sonorous rumble of that V-8 is pure aural sex. I could definitely live with that emanating from the engine bay on a daily basis (and my wife agrees with me, so I've already won that battle).
The M3/M4 will likely always be the better track car and will appeal very strongly to those who like to go out on the track. The M3/M4 is clearly set up to have an oversteer bias. Having started off with a Fox body Mustang as my first car I bought myself, I can understand the fun factor of being able to do snap oversteer drifts at will. But most of the time, what I want more is a well behaved daily driver that is capable enough to take into the mountains to do some corner carving on lightly traveled roads, and fast enough to feed my acceleration wants.
I'd rather have a well controlled vehicle that tends towards understeer that you really have to push into an oversteer situation - because most of the time, that is the safer setup to have for general daily driving, and while I'm perfectly comfortable catching a well balanced car in a drift, it's not something I want to deal with unless I actually WANT to deal with it.
I'm not in the position to be able to buy a $75k car to just be a track toy (and if I were, it'd probably be something more along the lines of a Porsche Cayman) - it's got to be a daily driver first and foremost. Frankly, it will probably never see the track (I've only gone a handful of times in almost 30 years of driving mostly performance cars). Probably my main concern at this point would be how intrusive the stability control is while set to a Sport+ type setting (while from the videos, it looks like the limits before intrusion are pretty high, I am concerned with the fact that a few reviewers have noted that once it DOES intervene, it does so by completely cutting the throttle...which is VERY irritating to me - I sold my 370Z less than a year after I bought it and ate the depreciation hit because it did the same thing, which meant to do any spirited driving, I had to completely disable the nannies, which I'd rather not do except on a track, and the threshold for intervention when the traction control was on was low enough that I hit it nearly daily taking turns onto onramps and the like). BMWs, on the other hand, I've had no problem with - when the nanny intervenes, it regulates the throttle, rather than cutting it completely, which is much less noticeable). But if the limits are as high as they appear to be in the videos, I likely won't run into that (looked to me like you actually had to put it into a sustained powerslide for the TC to cut the throttle).
And that engine note - I don't find the M3/M4s note to be unattractive at all - I-6s have always had a really nice smooth sound to me....but the sonorous rumble of that V-8 is pure aural sex. I could definitely live with that emanating from the engine bay on a daily basis (and my wife agrees with me, so I've already won that battle).
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 10-31-14 at 08:21 AM.
10-31-14, 08:27 AM
#411
that is a characteristic in all turbo engines, when youre off the throttle during braking the car is not generating any boost. The throttle body is closed. Then when you are exiting the corner and add throttle, the boost will come back and you get a large surge in power once the turbo spools up. If you were too heavy on the gas when this happens you can lose grip. You have to have a higher skill level and really really know your car to be able to be smooth. If you have a turbo AWD setup, the power surge is distributed to all wheels so you have a lot more control. If this veteran driver had this much trouble trying to drive the M at the limit, imagine a normal person. When Yaguchi said he wanted this to make this car accessable and easier to drivve, NA is the way to go.
10-31-14, 09:23 AM
#412
i was skeptical about the RC-F until watching the video. still a little disappointed about the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times but really held its own on the track against the beemer and looked way more composed doing so. would much rather have the compliant/composed lexus than the frenetic M4. i wonder if the M3 sedan would have performed any better or been more balanced on the track.
10-31-14, 10:01 AM
#413
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
i was skeptical about the RC-F until watching the video. still a little disappointed about the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times but really held its own on the track against the beemer and looked way more composed doing so. would much rather have the compliant/composed lexus than the frenetic M4. i wonder if the M3 sedan would have performed any better or been more balanced on the track.
As for the RCF, I would not be surprised to see it run a 4.0-4.1 in expert mode and with a TVD. We'll certainly find out next year when it hits the roads in the spring. If you think about it, this was not really a stock to stock comparison as the breaks on the M4 were carbon--a big advantage--even though it was basically a draw on track time. Stock for stock, the RCF cranks by the Ms at 155 on its way to 170 mph.
10-31-14, 10:21 AM
#414
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10-31-14, 10:26 AM
#415
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The 155 mph number is a gentlemen's agreement between by almost every european manufacturer except supercars, even the Mercedes SL V12 with over 600 hp has this 155 limit.This is nothing new and completely irrelevant to mention in a comparo. It has nothing to with real top speed and its fully legal to remove. There are videos on youtube where a M4 pulls over 180 mph with the limiter removed. But would it really be safe and appropriate if every other AMG ,RS or M passed you on the highway at 200 mph + every day. I dont think so. 
10-31-14, 12:04 PM
#417
Lexus Champion
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The 155 mph number is a gentlemen's agreement between by almost every european manufacturer except supercars, even the Mercedes SL V12 with over 600 hp has this 155 limit.This is nothing new and completely irrelevant to mention in a comparo. It has nothing to with real top speed and its fully legal to remove. There are videos on youtube where a M4 pulls over 180 mph with the limiter removed. But would it really be safe and appropriate if every other AMG ,RS or M passed you on the highway at 200 mph + every day. I dont think so.
Lexus states the ISF has hit 190 mph, so they limited it to 170 mph.
As for the German cars in the US (such as Merc and BMW), unless the buyer is paying for an option to open up the limiter, the manufacturer will not "unhook" the limiter. The M4 will hit 174 if unlimited. Based on my own experience with the BMW inline six, I view the limiting of the M4 as a cost containment measure. Their turbo charged engines also require costly maintenance at 20-30 K miles...fact. Someone has to pay.
It was actually the inverse. 
10-31-14, 01:36 PM
#420
