Should the RC F Get a Stick Shift?
07-23-14, 11:14 PM
#46
Pole Position
Have been daily driving a 6 speed manual car with an 8400 rpm limit for 11 years to work and just about everywhere. Nothing like doing your own rev-matches and heel-toe downshifts. Would not have it any other way. It will stay until I run it into the ground.
Ideally, I would like to have a 6 speed or 7 speed manual RC-F in my fantasy land, but that is not realistic (it will never happen). Since my wife needs to drive as well plus back seat for the baby seat, I am looking at a sporty automatic second option so the RC-F fits perfectly as my wife will be able to drive as well.
Me ripping through gears:
2ZZ-GE 05 Corolla XRS lift@ 6100 - 8400 rpm [20 - 120 mph] video 2/2 - YouTube
Ideally, I would like to have a 6 speed or 7 speed manual RC-F in my fantasy land, but that is not realistic (it will never happen). Since my wife needs to drive as well plus back seat for the baby seat, I am looking at a sporty automatic second option so the RC-F fits perfectly as my wife will be able to drive as well.
Me ripping through gears:
2ZZ-GE 05 Corolla XRS lift@ 6100 - 8400 rpm [20 - 120 mph] video 2/2 - YouTube
07-24-14, 12:43 AM
#47
Wow. A lot of you guys really don't like traditional manual transmissions. They aren't going to bite or harm a silly "L" badge on the hood. They also won't harm all the superb automatics in the rest of the Lexus lineup. They might eat the RX F-Sport's terrible CVT for lunch, however.
$100k+ supercars and hypercars have gone to DCT transmissions because obviously they shift faster than a traditional manual. They do this because, following Porsche and Ferrari's lead to mirror F1 technology and experience, that's the new gold standard type of transmission to set the best lap times. If you're marketing a car with the express intention of stating to the customer that your technology and knowhow actively trickles down from the highest R&D in the racing world it only makes sense. The MacLaren F1 used a traditional manual transmission because in the early 90's that was the best technology for the ultimate super car. Today the best technology is a dual-clutch manual. Porsche has only just now decided their ultra high performance 911's need to more squarely compete with other similarly priced super cars and make PDK-only GT3's and GT2's and when you look at a 911's MSRP today it makes sense.
An IS-F is not in that class of vehicles, however. It is an extremely capable high performance sport sedan and the existing 8-speed automatic is impressive but are most IS-F owners going to hit apexes and go for the fastest shift times on every excursion? Maybe some but I don't think so. It is a high performance prestige vehicle more than a true competition vehicle. Given that, and given that a traditional manual transmission, while not the fastest transmission technology any longer, is very engaging to the driver.... why not offer it on cars clearly not competing with supercars?
Why did Chevrolet just cave an announce the option of a 6-speed manual in their $45k SS sedan? Why did BMW offer a 6-speed manual for the current USA-spec M5? Why does Cadillac offer a 6-speed manual on their CTS-V sedan and coupe?
Obviously there are buyers for this sort of driving experience. It may be vanity but so is any one of the cars I mentioned above regardless of whether it's got a fast-shifting automatic, DCT or traditionalist 3-pedal manual. In this class of vehicle, great as the IS-F (and upcoming RC-F) are, it makes sense to offer a stick shift. And not just in your low end underpowered version of a sporty chassis (hello laughably slow IS250 6-speed).
Lexus won't offer it I am certain. They should, given the kind of cars the IS and RC are... but they won't because that's not what they want to market. No criticism to the superb 8-speed automatic either. It's very good. I wish they'd work on DCT's instead but this is what they want to do.
The SC/LF-LC $100k+ supercar I would never expect to have a traditional manual despite the SC300/Soarer turbo lineage. Lexus is positioning and pricing it with some very competitive company.
I'd love to see a manual IS/RC-F for even one generation but it won't happen. Widespread use of bulletproof DCT's in F models would be expected in the future, however.
$100k+ supercars and hypercars have gone to DCT transmissions because obviously they shift faster than a traditional manual. They do this because, following Porsche and Ferrari's lead to mirror F1 technology and experience, that's the new gold standard type of transmission to set the best lap times. If you're marketing a car with the express intention of stating to the customer that your technology and knowhow actively trickles down from the highest R&D in the racing world it only makes sense. The MacLaren F1 used a traditional manual transmission because in the early 90's that was the best technology for the ultimate super car. Today the best technology is a dual-clutch manual. Porsche has only just now decided their ultra high performance 911's need to more squarely compete with other similarly priced super cars and make PDK-only GT3's and GT2's and when you look at a 911's MSRP today it makes sense.
An IS-F is not in that class of vehicles, however. It is an extremely capable high performance sport sedan and the existing 8-speed automatic is impressive but are most IS-F owners going to hit apexes and go for the fastest shift times on every excursion? Maybe some but I don't think so. It is a high performance prestige vehicle more than a true competition vehicle. Given that, and given that a traditional manual transmission, while not the fastest transmission technology any longer, is very engaging to the driver.... why not offer it on cars clearly not competing with supercars?
Why did Chevrolet just cave an announce the option of a 6-speed manual in their $45k SS sedan? Why did BMW offer a 6-speed manual for the current USA-spec M5? Why does Cadillac offer a 6-speed manual on their CTS-V sedan and coupe?
Obviously there are buyers for this sort of driving experience. It may be vanity but so is any one of the cars I mentioned above regardless of whether it's got a fast-shifting automatic, DCT or traditionalist 3-pedal manual. In this class of vehicle, great as the IS-F (and upcoming RC-F) are, it makes sense to offer a stick shift. And not just in your low end underpowered version of a sporty chassis (hello laughably slow IS250 6-speed).
Lexus won't offer it I am certain. They should, given the kind of cars the IS and RC are... but they won't because that's not what they want to market. No criticism to the superb 8-speed automatic either. It's very good. I wish they'd work on DCT's instead but this is what they want to do.
The SC/LF-LC $100k+ supercar I would never expect to have a traditional manual despite the SC300/Soarer turbo lineage. Lexus is positioning and pricing it with some very competitive company.
I'd love to see a manual IS/RC-F for even one generation but it won't happen. Widespread use of bulletproof DCT's in F models would be expected in the future, however.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 07-24-14 at 12:47 AM.
07-24-14, 05:14 AM
#48
Dont hate manual, I just know when to let the sun set on it. Great to learn on, you can learn a lot from it but in the end, I'll take modern AT/DCTs. Fast AT fits the bill for 95% of users out there. DCT shows on the track but honestly how many people track their cars, very few. I track casually, but the 8AT is very potent. Weakest link in the car is still me, not AT vs DCT. Even the Z06 is coming with an 8AT not DCT. BMW likes to charge you $3-4k for the upgraded tranny anyways when it should be standard on a model like that.
07-24-14, 05:53 AM
#49
I'd jump on a stick in a heartbeat !!! Of course its much more convenient not bothering with one especially with day to day traffic here in NY/NJ but I still remember having a manual in my G35 in 2006 and it was a blasst to drive every day
07-24-14, 10:13 AM
#50
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This thread is comedy from start to finish. First, it will never happen. Period. Toyota and manual are two things that don't go together and haven't for many years. Just look at the MkIV Supra numbers - the autos outsold the manuals by a ridiculous ratio despite the incredibly durable design of the V-160 (Getrag 233). In 2014, manuals don't sell.
Let's add to this - I have both the 6 speed Supra and the IS-F in my garage. I have over 150k miles on the Supra, and I can heel toe just fine. The F NEVER makes a mistake shifting. Ever. It's never tired, it's never slow, it's never distracted, it just shifts gears and rev matches better than any human ever could. Every single time. No one here can claim the same driving a manual. Oh, yeah, I learned to drive a manual in the barnyard when I was 6 years old. That was 48 years ago. I do have a little seat time with manuals.
Let's see any of you guys claiming "lt takes away from the driving experience" drop down a gear in mid-turn with the car approaching the limit of traction. I did this with ease in my IS-F in turn 11 at CMP. I would never, ever consider something so foolish with a clutch - I'd be spinning through the grass in a half second before I could move the shifter. So to me, all this hand wringing about "they have to do it to prove they are serious" makes as much sense as punching a hole through the nose so you can crank the engine over by hand. I'm sure there were similar debates when the electric starter made its debut, but even Harley Davidson dropped their kick starters after it was pretty clear no one (statistically) wanted them anymore. But I'll bet there are Harley forums for those who lament the loss of being able to start your bike with a leg stroke instead of pushing a button because "it adds to the riding experience."
Straight comedy. Join the 21 Century and depart that spinning plate in space where people fall off the edges. It's where the rest of us are.
Let's add to this - I have both the 6 speed Supra and the IS-F in my garage. I have over 150k miles on the Supra, and I can heel toe just fine. The F NEVER makes a mistake shifting. Ever. It's never tired, it's never slow, it's never distracted, it just shifts gears and rev matches better than any human ever could. Every single time. No one here can claim the same driving a manual. Oh, yeah, I learned to drive a manual in the barnyard when I was 6 years old. That was 48 years ago. I do have a little seat time with manuals.
Let's see any of you guys claiming "lt takes away from the driving experience" drop down a gear in mid-turn with the car approaching the limit of traction. I did this with ease in my IS-F in turn 11 at CMP. I would never, ever consider something so foolish with a clutch - I'd be spinning through the grass in a half second before I could move the shifter. So to me, all this hand wringing about "they have to do it to prove they are serious" makes as much sense as punching a hole through the nose so you can crank the engine over by hand. I'm sure there were similar debates when the electric starter made its debut, but even Harley Davidson dropped their kick starters after it was pretty clear no one (statistically) wanted them anymore. But I'll bet there are Harley forums for those who lament the loss of being able to start your bike with a leg stroke instead of pushing a button because "it adds to the riding experience."
Straight comedy. Join the 21 Century and depart that spinning plate in space where people fall off the edges. It's where the rest of us are.
No one is "hating" manuals, we have just come to terms that they are a dying breed and never were a good combo in a Lexus in the first place.
Thank you for that post.
07-24-14, 02:28 PM
#53
Lexus Test Driver
07-24-14, 03:26 PM
#55
i drive a manual tranny every day too and i enjoy it immensely. and my m3 was 6mt too and i loved it. but i also agree that mt is going away and it's very unlikely that we will see it again for various reasons. time is all we need to "wash" this away. it's just like power steering, when it was first introduced, we had these EXACT same discussions on how it took engagement away. guess what, decades later, no one thinks about it anymore.
07-25-14, 12:58 PM
#56
^^ Not all cars have power steering. MR2's and MR2 Spyders came with manual steering due to the engine location and light weight. I believe the Lotus Elise also comes with manual steering for the same reason. I'm sure there are a few other lighter MR european cars like the Renault Clio V6 that similarly have manual steering and are sold as road cars. Any car with the engine in the front... all power steering equipped. And newer Lamborghinis since Countach owners complained about the pain of parking their cars in tight spaces with manual steering. Now a low-speed power steering system is available as a retrofit for the Countach (which shuts off after about 15mph to preserve the original steering feel).
I think another coming argument other than the manual transmission debate will be for or against servo-operated steering systems versus a well designed conventional hydraulic system. Infiniti has not had stellar reviews of its Q50's electronic/servo steering system. Maybe that's because it's the first of its type but it doesn't sound like something I would want to option when the brochure clearly states it is designed to remove what is commonly referred to as "road feel" or "steering feel". I love manual transmissions but I think communicative steering and road feel through the wheel are far more important things when driving a car.
I think another coming argument other than the manual transmission debate will be for or against servo-operated steering systems versus a well designed conventional hydraulic system. Infiniti has not had stellar reviews of its Q50's electronic/servo steering system. Maybe that's because it's the first of its type but it doesn't sound like something I would want to option when the brochure clearly states it is designed to remove what is commonly referred to as "road feel" or "steering feel". I love manual transmissions but I think communicative steering and road feel through the wheel are far more important things when driving a car.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 07-25-14 at 01:02 PM.
07-26-14, 03:10 PM
#57
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
...I think another coming argument other than the manual transmission debate will be for or against servo-operated steering systems versus a well designed conventional hydraulic system. Infiniti has not had stellar reviews of its Q50's electronic/servo steering system. Maybe that's because it's the first of its type but it doesn't sound like something I would want to option when the brochure clearly states it is designed to remove what is commonly referred to as "road feel" or "steering feel". I love manual transmissions but I think communicative steering and road feel through the wheel are far more important things when driving a car.
I don't embrace it, but I recognize it for what it is - the march of technology in search of a better human machine interface. Just because we've always done it the way it is now doesn't mean the original design was well architected or considered the input of all possible groups. There has been a whole lot of knowledge about human to machine interfaces gained in the last century when we first decided a round wheel and foot operated controls would be best for driving an automobile. I can say for sure if my car had controls like a motorcycle, I'd like it a whole lot better. It's very easy to modulate hand grip for braking, and a 1/7 to 1/4 turn throttle is like magic to me. Pedals are crude and inaccurate compared to hand controls, but we persist with the current paradigm because it's the way we've always done it.
07-28-14, 04:47 AM
#58
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Would be a good thing.
I have been a loyal Lexus customer since 1990 when I bought my first SC400. If Lexus decides to include a stick in the new RC, it better be a good one. I have full confidence that it will be breakthrough. Personally I dont think its necessary but when you are up against BMW, you need to atleast offer it. Keep up the great work Lexus. After owning 13 Lexus' including 2 RX hybrids, I have not experienced one mechanical failure, electrical etc. Can't say the same thing about the other badge that my wife drives.
Lexus does it right the first time.
Lexus does it right the first time.
07-28-14, 11:24 AM
#59
And yet there is a whole generation of gamers who have learned the technical aspects of driving with zero road feel. They might even be more comfortable using a completely different paradigm for controlling the car because it is more like what they've used with their Wii, XBox, or Playstation.
I don't embrace it, but I recognize it for what it is - the march of technology in search of a better human machine interface. Just because we've always done it the way it is now doesn't mean the original design was well architected or considered the input of all possible groups. There has been a whole lot of knowledge about human to machine interfaces gained in the last century when we first decided a round wheel and foot operated controls would be best for driving an automobile. I can say for sure if my car had controls like a motorcycle, I'd like it a whole lot better. It's very easy to modulate hand grip for braking, and a 1/7 to 1/4 turn throttle is like magic to me. Pedals are crude and inaccurate compared to hand controls, but we persist with the current paradigm because it's the way we've always done it.
I don't embrace it, but I recognize it for what it is - the march of technology in search of a better human machine interface. Just because we've always done it the way it is now doesn't mean the original design was well architected or considered the input of all possible groups. There has been a whole lot of knowledge about human to machine interfaces gained in the last century when we first decided a round wheel and foot operated controls would be best for driving an automobile. I can say for sure if my car had controls like a motorcycle, I'd like it a whole lot better. It's very easy to modulate hand grip for braking, and a 1/7 to 1/4 turn throttle is like magic to me. Pedals are crude and inaccurate compared to hand controls, but we persist with the current paradigm because it's the way we've always done it.
. there is just no way to argue about performance. driving feel or personal preference that's just that -- subjective
08-19-14, 04:54 PM
#60
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If BMW can market a 6-speed with the new M3/M4, there is no reason why Lexus cannot do the same. As mentioned above, this is not the $100k+ super/hyper car market where times are everything and DCT is the only answer.
I have driven them all - autos, CVT's, SMG's, DCT's, PDK's, DSG's, and at the end of the day, it's not about lap times. There is something so pleasing about stepping on a clutch pedal to start a car and rowing through my gears racing through the mountains or down the highway. Not a single 2 pedal transmission I have driven can ever replace this feeling.
Every car I have owned in my life except one has been a manual transmission. This includes:
1994 Toyota MR2 turbo (2003-2004)
2003 BMW M3 coupe (2005-2010)
1998 Toyota Supra turbo (2010-2013)
2003 BMW M3 coupe (2013-2014)
2008 BMW M6 coupe (2014-current)
The only car I owned that was not a manual was a 2009 e63 BMW M6 coupe; in SMG. Superb characteristics when driving hard and fast, but I owned it for 3 months and missed 6-spd way too much. To think BMW would even put a 6-spd in this class of car is almost unimaginable too. I got lucky, found a 6-speed M6 (only 380 coupes produced for the entire US) and flew halfway across the country to buy it.
Due to my love for Japanese sports cars as a child, I've longed to get into a upscale Japanese sports car - GT-R, this new RC-F has my heart racing (first compact luxury coupe ever offered by Lexus that we've all been waiting for since the Altezza... and a F-version from the get go to boot!!!), but not being offered in a 6-spd is just extremely extremely disappointing for me. It forces me to turn to my other half, BMW - the true ultimate driving machine.
My daily is a 2004 e46 BMW 330ci 5-speed auto. No complaints, a great daily, but for my fun car, I just refuse to have it any other way.
I have driven them all - autos, CVT's, SMG's, DCT's, PDK's, DSG's, and at the end of the day, it's not about lap times. There is something so pleasing about stepping on a clutch pedal to start a car and rowing through my gears racing through the mountains or down the highway. Not a single 2 pedal transmission I have driven can ever replace this feeling.
Every car I have owned in my life except one has been a manual transmission. This includes:
1994 Toyota MR2 turbo (2003-2004)
2003 BMW M3 coupe (2005-2010)
1998 Toyota Supra turbo (2010-2013)
2003 BMW M3 coupe (2013-2014)
2008 BMW M6 coupe (2014-current)
The only car I owned that was not a manual was a 2009 e63 BMW M6 coupe; in SMG. Superb characteristics when driving hard and fast, but I owned it for 3 months and missed 6-spd way too much. To think BMW would even put a 6-spd in this class of car is almost unimaginable too. I got lucky, found a 6-speed M6 (only 380 coupes produced for the entire US) and flew halfway across the country to buy it.
Due to my love for Japanese sports cars as a child, I've longed to get into a upscale Japanese sports car - GT-R, this new RC-F has my heart racing (first compact luxury coupe ever offered by Lexus that we've all been waiting for since the Altezza... and a F-version from the get go to boot!!!), but not being offered in a 6-spd is just extremely extremely disappointing for me. It forces me to turn to my other half, BMW - the true ultimate driving machine.
My daily is a 2004 e46 BMW 330ci 5-speed auto. No complaints, a great daily, but for my fun car, I just refuse to have it any other way.
Last edited by flightz71; 08-19-14 at 06:10 PM.