Lexus RC F vs BMW M4 side by side pics
05-15-14, 09:19 AM
#182
Lexus Test Driver
There are no parallels in your analogy.
05-15-14, 09:21 AM
#183
Lexus Test Driver
The more I read M4 reviews, the more it seems like "the ultimate 435i" instead of something truly special like we are used to with M cars.
I am not picking on the Bimmer - BMW has done a great job - but over the last several years, it just seems that we've seen M turn it's back on true performance enthusiasts and go with a softer, more practical approach. This M4 seems very much to be that type of car - on paper, it checks all the right boxes but in person, it seems "unspecial" in a way.
I know that downsizing and forced induction are the way of the future, but that review is a very good example of how there is just no replacement for displacement in performance cars like this.
I am not picking on the Bimmer - BMW has done a great job - but over the last several years, it just seems that we've seen M turn it's back on true performance enthusiasts and go with a softer, more practical approach. This M4 seems very much to be that type of car - on paper, it checks all the right boxes but in person, it seems "unspecial" in a way.
I know that downsizing and forced induction are the way of the future, but that review is a very good example of how there is just no replacement for displacement in performance cars like this.
Every car is getting more tech, luxury, etc. Its incredible achievement that the new //M is much more powerful, more fuel efficient, weighs less, and has many more features. Has it lost some of the raw nature? Yes ...... But that can be said of EVERY sports car today.
At the end of the day, the car needs to sell. Like it or not, 99% of buyers will find the new M 3/4 more useable as a daily hence that will increase sales.
Its a shame that the pressures of Environmentalist are ruining the V8.
RCF will be a special car. It may be THE LAST Naturally Aspirated high performance V8 besides the pony cars and exotics.
05-15-14, 09:24 AM
#184
The more I read M4 reviews, the more it seems like "the ultimate 435i" instead of something truly special like we are used to with M cars.
I am not picking on the Bimmer - BMW has done a great job - but over the last several years, it just seems that we've seen M turn it's back on true performance enthusiasts and go with a softer, more practical approach. This M4 seems very much to be that type of car - on paper, it checks all the right boxes but in person, it seems "unspecial" in a way.
I know that downsizing and forced induction are the way of the future, but that review is a very good example of how there is just no replacement for displacement in performance cars like this.
I am not picking on the Bimmer - BMW has done a great job - but over the last several years, it just seems that we've seen M turn it's back on true performance enthusiasts and go with a softer, more practical approach. This M4 seems very much to be that type of car - on paper, it checks all the right boxes but in person, it seems "unspecial" in a way.
I know that downsizing and forced induction are the way of the future, but that review is a very good example of how there is just no replacement for displacement in performance cars like this.
No I agree it seems 'softer' and most reviews have gone on to say its much more dd these days
05-15-14, 09:31 AM
#185
Lexus Test Driver
Not sure how you came up with that. IS looks nothing like a Corolla and shares nothing with a Corolla. The 335 in current form is a lot more similar to the M4 than it has been historically and they are based on the same chassis, platform etc.
There are no parallels in your analogy.
There are no parallels in your analogy.
Please re- read. - im not comparing IS to a Corolla.
You need to study history of //M brand and not just look at the last generation.
//M cars and engines were always based on the standard cars.
05-15-14, 09:48 AM
#186
Lexus Test Driver
Let me see, the S65 V8 and S85 V10 were not. They were both from the ground up, different engines. The E46 M3 engine was a 3.2 Liter inline-6 that also had a different block than the 3.0 Liter inline 6.
The whole premise of the M car was born from transplanting E28 M5 with an M1 engine. M division had always been about purpose-built M engines.
This new M4 has an identitiy crisis going on. It is trying to be too many things to too many people. They tried to work around the limitations that were already established in the 3.0 Liter twin turbo engine and ended up fitting it with small size turboes just to try and mimic the N/A throttle response (it did not work). For marketing purposes, they fitted it with a 7600 rpm redline when the torque curve is sharply dropping off after 6500 rpm, they could not make the engine sound right so they fitted it with synthesized engine/exhaust sounds that are channeled through the stereo system speakers etc.
It ended up being neither a great turbo engine nor an engine that can mimic N/A characteristics very well.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 05-15-14 at 10:09 AM.
05-15-14, 10:15 AM
#187
Pole Position
You were comparing the level of ignorance found on BMW forums to something he said that was very valid.
Let me see, the S65 V8 and S85 V10 were not. They were both from the ground up, different engines. The E46 M3 engine was a 3.2 Liter inline-6 that also had a different block than the 3.0 Liter inline 6.
The whole premise of the M car was born from transplanting E28 M5 with an M1 engine. M division had always been about purpose-built M engines.
This new M4 has an identitiy crisis going on. It is trying to be too many things to too many people. They tried to work around the limitations that were already established in the 3.0 Liter twin turbo engine and ended up fitting it with small size turboes just to try and mimic the N/A throttle response (it did not work). For marketing purposes, they fitted it with a 7600 rpm redline when the torque curve is sharply dropping off after 6500 rpm, they could not make the engine sound right so they fitted it with synthesized engine/exhaust sounds that are channeled through the stereo system speakers etc.
It ended up being neither a great turbo engine nor an engine that can mimic N/A characteristics very well.
Let me see, the S65 V8 and S85 V10 were not. They were both from the ground up, different engines. The E46 M3 engine was a 3.2 Liter inline-6 that also had a different block than the 3.0 Liter inline 6.
The whole premise of the M car was born from transplanting E28 M5 with an M1 engine. M division had always been about purpose-built M engines.
This new M4 has an identitiy crisis going on. It is trying to be too many things to too many people. They tried to work around the limitations that were already established in the 3.0 Liter twin turbo engine and ended up fitting it with small size turboes just to try and mimic the N/A throttle response (it did not work). For marketing purposes, they fitted it with a 7600 rpm redline when the torque curve is sharply dropping off after 6500 rpm, they could not make the engine sound right so they fitted it with synthesized engine/exhaust sounds that are channeled through the stereo system speakers etc.
It ended up being neither a great turbo engine nor an engine that can mimic N/A characteristics very well.
Question is and always will be, is sportscar a collection of ultimate data and specs on paper or is sportscar the one that invokes chemistry in your body even if its standing still? There is no correct answer to this question fortunately.
05-15-14, 10:27 AM
#188
it became more of an everyday engine and less a track engine. Compromising on too many things. Their cars are getting softer like what happened to the 3 and 5. Torque curve is pretty much what a trucks torque curve should look like, yet its in an M3/M4?
05-15-14, 11:51 AM
#189
I saw a poster on the M3 forums describe the F80 m4 like this : " An upgraded 335i with an M badge."
Sounds about right
Chassis? Just a 3 series body with suspension upgrades and bracing--even the body shape looks so similar to the 3 series sedan. Engine? A beefed up 335i engine. Everything that previously made an M car special has been stripped away. It doesn't even have the distinction of having a V8 to differentiate from the run-of-the mill entry level BMW sedan.
At least the RC-F body looks so distinct from the regular IS sedan, you'd be hard pressed to tell they were from similar platforms. And no one could ever accuse the RC-F of sharing engine similarities with the V6 IS350.
Sounds about right
Chassis? Just a 3 series body with suspension upgrades and bracing--even the body shape looks so similar to the 3 series sedan. Engine? A beefed up 335i engine. Everything that previously made an M car special has been stripped away. It doesn't even have the distinction of having a V8 to differentiate from the run-of-the mill entry level BMW sedan.
At least the RC-F body looks so distinct from the regular IS sedan, you'd be hard pressed to tell they were from similar platforms. And no one could ever accuse the RC-F of sharing engine similarities with the V6 IS350.
05-15-14, 03:18 PM
#190
Pole Position
I guess my points is M cars used to at least differentiate themselves from the base 3 series in terms of unique engines.
The E90/E92 M3 at least had a V8 as a distinction to the base E90 3 series. This new generation of m3/4 just seem too close to the base F30 in terms of both body shape and engine configuration to be anything special to a prospective owner. Pull it up next to a 335i on the street and a non-enthusiast layperson may think the M4 is just a modded 335i with a body kit and aftermarket exhaust.
Contrast this to the RC-F where the body has been so heavily reworked that it's almost as if the RC-F doesn't share a single body panel with the base IS. And the V8 engine note is most definitely not the same as the V6. Pull up an RC-F next to an IS350 and even a layman won't make the mistake of thinking the RC-F is a modded IS.
That's the point I guess I was trying to make : not too much now seems to be unique or special to the M4 unlike in the past.
The E90/E92 M3 at least had a V8 as a distinction to the base E90 3 series. This new generation of m3/4 just seem too close to the base F30 in terms of both body shape and engine configuration to be anything special to a prospective owner. Pull it up next to a 335i on the street and a non-enthusiast layperson may think the M4 is just a modded 335i with a body kit and aftermarket exhaust.
Contrast this to the RC-F where the body has been so heavily reworked that it's almost as if the RC-F doesn't share a single body panel with the base IS. And the V8 engine note is most definitely not the same as the V6. Pull up an RC-F next to an IS350 and even a layman won't make the mistake of thinking the RC-F is a modded IS.
That's the point I guess I was trying to make : not too much now seems to be unique or special to the M4 unlike in the past.
Last edited by natnut; 05-15-14 at 03:22 PM.
05-15-14, 03:26 PM
#191
I guess my points is M cars used to at least differentiate themselves from the base 3 series in terms of unique engines.
The E90/E92 M3 at least had a V8 as a distinction to the base E90 3 series. This new generation of m3/4 just seem too close to the base F30 in terms of both body shape and engine configuration to be anything special to a prospective owner. Pull it up next to a 335i on the street and a non-enthusiast layperson may think the M4 is just a modded 335i with a body kit and aftermarket exhaust.
Contrast this to the RC-F where the body has been so heavily reworked that it's almost as if the RC-F doesn't share a single body panel with the base IS. And the V8 engine note is most definitely not the same as the V6. Pull up an RC-F next to an IS350 and even a layman won't make the mistake of thinking the RC-F is a modded IS.
That's the point I guess I was trying to make : not too much now seems to be unique or special to the M4 unlike in the past.
The E90/E92 M3 at least had a V8 as a distinction to the base E90 3 series. This new generation of m3/4 just seem too close to the base F30 in terms of both body shape and engine configuration to be anything special to a prospective owner. Pull it up next to a 335i on the street and a non-enthusiast layperson may think the M4 is just a modded 335i with a body kit and aftermarket exhaust.
Contrast this to the RC-F where the body has been so heavily reworked that it's almost as if the RC-F doesn't share a single body panel with the base IS. And the V8 engine note is most definitely not the same as the V6. Pull up an RC-F next to an IS350 and even a layman won't make the mistake of thinking the RC-F is a modded IS.
That's the point I guess I was trying to make : not too much now seems to be unique or special to the M4 unlike in the past.
05-15-14, 04:04 PM
#192
Lexus Test Driver
Actually, RC-F chassis is not based on the IS at all. It is completely different from the IS. It is a heavily reworked and shortened GS platform.
However, I agree regarding the engine. Yaguchi san stuck to his guns (with Toyoda's support). He clearly stated in interviews compromising on engine sound, torque delivery and throttle response was not an option and it is not possible to achieve that with turbos (mind you, Yaguchi san's resume has him being chief engineer of Toyota Supra Twin Turbo MK4). Yamaha has been working hard on tuning the engine/exhaust note to somehow make it sound high pitched at high revs.
It is extremely admirable that Lexus took the difficult and much more challenging way with a no-nonsense no-compromise approach. They made the V8 higher and free-revving while still being able to clear the strictest emission standards ever (Euro 6) and improving fuel economy simultaneously.
However, I agree regarding the engine. Yaguchi san stuck to his guns (with Toyoda's support). He clearly stated in interviews compromising on engine sound, torque delivery and throttle response was not an option and it is not possible to achieve that with turbos (mind you, Yaguchi san's resume has him being chief engineer of Toyota Supra Twin Turbo MK4). Yamaha has been working hard on tuning the engine/exhaust note to somehow make it sound high pitched at high revs.
It is extremely admirable that Lexus took the difficult and much more challenging way with a no-nonsense no-compromise approach. They made the V8 higher and free-revving while still being able to clear the strictest emission standards ever (Euro 6) and improving fuel economy simultaneously.
I guess my points is M cars used to at least differentiate themselves from the base 3 series in terms
Contrast this to the RC-F where the body has been so heavily reworked that it's almost as if the RC-F doesn't share a single body panel with the base IS. And the V8 engine note is most definitely not the same as the V6. Pull up an RC-F next to an IS350 and even a layman won't make the mistake of thinking the RC-F is a modded IS.
That's the point I guess I was trying to make : not too much now seems to be unique or special to the M4 unlike in the past.
Contrast this to the RC-F where the body has been so heavily reworked that it's almost as if the RC-F doesn't share a single body panel with the base IS. And the V8 engine note is most definitely not the same as the V6. Pull up an RC-F next to an IS350 and even a layman won't make the mistake of thinking the RC-F is a modded IS.
That's the point I guess I was trying to make : not too much now seems to be unique or special to the M4 unlike in the past.
05-15-14, 04:27 PM
#193
I guess my points is M cars used to at least differentiate themselves from the base 3 series in terms of unique engines.
The E90/E92 M3 at least had a V8 as a distinction to the base E90 3 series. This new generation of m3/4 just seem too close to the base F30 in terms of both body shape and engine configuration to be anything special to a prospective owner. Pull it up next to a 335i on the street and a non-enthusiast layperson may think the M4 is just a modded 335i with a body kit and aftermarket exhaust.
Contrast this to the RC-F where the body has been so heavily reworked that it's almost as if the RC-F doesn't share a single body panel with the base IS. And the V8 engine note is most definitely not the same as the V6. Pull up an RC-F next to an IS350 and even a layman won't make the mistake of thinking the RC-F is a modded IS.
That's the point I guess I was trying to make : not too much now seems to be unique or special to the M4 unlike in the past.
The E90/E92 M3 at least had a V8 as a distinction to the base E90 3 series. This new generation of m3/4 just seem too close to the base F30 in terms of both body shape and engine configuration to be anything special to a prospective owner. Pull it up next to a 335i on the street and a non-enthusiast layperson may think the M4 is just a modded 335i with a body kit and aftermarket exhaust.
Contrast this to the RC-F where the body has been so heavily reworked that it's almost as if the RC-F doesn't share a single body panel with the base IS. And the V8 engine note is most definitely not the same as the V6. Pull up an RC-F next to an IS350 and even a layman won't make the mistake of thinking the RC-F is a modded IS.
That's the point I guess I was trying to make : not too much now seems to be unique or special to the M4 unlike in the past.
at the same time i do think it's great that the is and rc are two different cars, better differentiation, etc.... however between is and isf, or rc and rcf, i think cosmetic wise they are just about the same as 3/4 vs m3/4. using that as an argument is a bit weak imho. now come to drive train and it's a totally different story.
and for example on e9x m3 vs regular? actually 90% of the stuff are different. just a data point
05-15-14, 04:44 PM
#195
You know what I find funny. These full fledge sport models are not volume models. Efficiency while nice is not the point of these vehicles. So BMW dropping the 4.0L V8 and 5.0L V10 in favor of some hi-po normal 3.0 and 4.4 mills really misses the mark. Rolla summed it up nice saying that Lexus took the hard road so there would be no compromises. BMW drops the V8 in favor of the I6 saying "oh it's more efficient". Lexus keeps the V8, and it's aural bliss AND makes it meet strict standards. BMW did a good job with the chassis and weight but honestly seems M is getting lazy.
Why M when you can F..
Why M when you can F..
