Interesting mustang 5.0, Rcf, m4 comparison
07-27-16, 11:57 AM
#46
Pole Position
lol, you don't see LFAs on the road because only about 180 made to the US and they are typically used as daily drivers.
RE: Your comment about owning German cars out of warranty
You are correct about BMW. Lol, my one new M experience was so bad even though my too numerous to count trips to the dealer were covered by warranty . . . Never again.
You apparently don't know much about Porsches though. I put 35k, 55k and 80k on 3 911 turbos owned between 2001 and 2011 and only had an instrument cluster replaced when tail wouldn't go up in the 01. I drove my 97 for 4 years and cannot recall any issues in 4 years, but it has been a while. Throughout the years, the only 911 NA headaches were the pre-993 air cooled top end rebuilds generally required around 80k.
Turbo and NA 911s are generally bullet proof but for that random RMS/IMS that impacted the NA 996 and 997.1 motors.
I offered to buy my wife a M6 convertible here recently and she said "No, I will never let you buy another BMW after that M3 you had."
RE: Your comment about owning German cars out of warranty
You are correct about BMW. Lol, my one new M experience was so bad even though my too numerous to count trips to the dealer were covered by warranty . . . Never again.
You apparently don't know much about Porsches though. I put 35k, 55k and 80k on 3 911 turbos owned between 2001 and 2011 and only had an instrument cluster replaced when tail wouldn't go up in the 01. I drove my 97 for 4 years and cannot recall any issues in 4 years, but it has been a while. Throughout the years, the only 911 NA headaches were the pre-993 air cooled top end rebuilds generally required around 80k.
Turbo and NA 911s are generally bullet proof but for that random RMS/IMS that impacted the NA 996 and 997.1 motors.
I offered to buy my wife a M6 convertible here recently and she said "No, I will never let you buy another BMW after that M3 you had."
And then I've met quite a few Porsche owners who say, "Just make sure you get the extended warranty if you plan on owning one for an extended period of time." And I've talked to a lot of them, because I've been in the market eyeing them for the last 5 years. I'm on the Porsche forums too, and some of their experiences have been catastrophic, savings-depleting issues. And on top of that, they couldn't even get rid of the car without losing their shirts.
And you know what, there's a lot of BMW owners who have 200,000+ mile BMWs, who claim very few problems, and swear by them. I just met a guy last week at the gas station, pulled up in his clean, white 2005 E46 (M3) with 195,000 miles, and he loved it. He said it was the best car he's over owned and never planned to get rid of it. He had just driven to Texas and back in the car.
And then there's a lot of BMW enthusiasts like you, who've had disastrous experiences.
Basically, it's all a matter of one's personal experience.
I, myself, I don't think I'm owning any German car in the foreseeable future outside of warranty, whether it's Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, whatever.
You mentioned putting 35k, 55k and 80k on Porsches, and to me, that's not a lot of mileage. Again, I'm coming from past experiences that include owning a 1990 Nissan 300ZX Turbo with 350,000 miles (with the original turbos), and 2 Lexuses with 550,000+ miles between them and counting. I want to meet the Porsche owners who have Porsches with like 150k or 200k miles on them. There's not a lot of those out there though. It's a different level of confidence you need when you crest 200,000 miles in a car.
And to give you the level of confidence I have in my heavily-modded 305,000-mile 2001 GS, I'd jump in it today and drive across country. Now THAT's confidence and reliability.
Last edited by KevinGS; 07-27-16 at 12:08 PM.
07-27-16, 12:54 PM
#47
Driver School Candidate
Are you guys familiar with Geico's mechanical breakdown insurance? I was not even considering the M3, but when I saw the mbi coverage in my Geico insurance I figured why not try the unreliable BMW. When warranty expires as long as I stay with Geico the mbi coverage will still be in effect.
07-27-16, 01:42 PM
#48
Lead Lap
Lots of Porsche owners say that they have had few problems, but many say that if anything does break, it's an arm and a leg to fix it.
And then I've met quite a few Porsche owners who say, "Just make sure you get the extended warranty if you plan on owning one for an extended period of time." And I've talked to a lot of them, because I've been in the market eyeing them for the last 5 years. I'm on the Porsche forums too, and some of their experiences have been catastrophic, savings-depleting issues. And on top of that, they couldn't even get rid of the car without losing their shirts.
And you know what, there's a lot of BMW owners who have 200,000+ mile BMWs, who claim very few problems, and swear by them. I just met a guy last week at the gas station, pulled up in his clean, white 2005 E46 (M3) with 195,000 miles, and he loved it. He said it was the best car he's over owned and never planned to get rid of it. He had just driven to Texas and back in the car.
And then there's a lot of BMW enthusiasts like you, who've had disastrous experiences.
Basically, it's all a matter of one's personal experience.
I, myself, I don't think I'm owning any German car in the foreseeable future outside of warranty, whether it's Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, whatever.
You mentioned putting 35k, 55k and 80k on Porsches, and to me, that's not a lot of mileage. Again, I'm coming from past experiences that include owning a 1990 Nissan 300ZX Turbo with 350,000 miles (with the original turbos), and 2 Lexuses with 550,000+ miles between them and counting. I want to meet the Porsche owners who have Porsches with like 150k or 200k miles on them. There's not a lot of those out there though. It's a different level of confidence you need when you crest 200,000 miles in a car.
And to give you the level of confidence I have in my heavily-modded 305,000-mile 2001 GS, I'd jump in it today and drive across country. Now THAT's confidence and reliability.
And then I've met quite a few Porsche owners who say, "Just make sure you get the extended warranty if you plan on owning one for an extended period of time." And I've talked to a lot of them, because I've been in the market eyeing them for the last 5 years. I'm on the Porsche forums too, and some of their experiences have been catastrophic, savings-depleting issues. And on top of that, they couldn't even get rid of the car without losing their shirts.
And you know what, there's a lot of BMW owners who have 200,000+ mile BMWs, who claim very few problems, and swear by them. I just met a guy last week at the gas station, pulled up in his clean, white 2005 E46 (M3) with 195,000 miles, and he loved it. He said it was the best car he's over owned and never planned to get rid of it. He had just driven to Texas and back in the car.
And then there's a lot of BMW enthusiasts like you, who've had disastrous experiences.
Basically, it's all a matter of one's personal experience.
I, myself, I don't think I'm owning any German car in the foreseeable future outside of warranty, whether it's Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, whatever.
You mentioned putting 35k, 55k and 80k on Porsches, and to me, that's not a lot of mileage. Again, I'm coming from past experiences that include owning a 1990 Nissan 300ZX Turbo with 350,000 miles (with the original turbos), and 2 Lexuses with 550,000+ miles between them and counting. I want to meet the Porsche owners who have Porsches with like 150k or 200k miles on them. There's not a lot of those out there though. It's a different level of confidence you need when you crest 200,000 miles in a car.
And to give you the level of confidence I have in my heavily-modded 305,000-mile 2001 GS, I'd jump in it today and drive across country. Now THAT's confidence and reliability.
Just because a handful of people can honestly report that they have xxx,xxx miles on their vehicles with few issues does not mean that it is the norm.
Last edited by Davew77; 07-27-16 at 02:07 PM.
07-27-16, 01:54 PM
#49
Are you guys familiar with Geico's mechanical breakdown insurance? I was not even considering the M3, but when I saw the mbi coverage in my Geico insurance I figured why not try the unreliable BMW. When warranty expires as long as I stay with Geico the mbi coverage will still be in effect.
07-27-16, 02:18 PM
#50
Pole Position
Every make and model of vehicle has some vehicles that last for inordinate amounts of time and mileage with few issues and some that have issues their entire life. But statistically speaking a BMW is much more likely to have problems than say a Lexus. Lexus has it's lemons too, but statistically the chances of getting a lemon with a Lexus is much less likely than with a BMW. A BMW is also going to cost probably twice as much to repair as a Lexus since it's a European car. A Porsche is going to cost more than a BMW though (assuming equal problems on a part to part basis).
Just because a handful of people can honestly report that they have xxx,xxx miles on their vehicles with few issues does not mean that it is the norm.
Just because a handful of people can honestly report that they have xxx,xxx miles on their vehicles with few issues does not mean that it is the norm.
And remember, I'm the one that said I would never own a German car out of warranty, not even a VW. Yet I've logged hundreds of thousands Lexus miles without a warranty.
I was simply stating that none of those German cars are rock solid beyond 150,000 miles (and some at a number less than that)....and when they break down, they often cost a ton of money.
So if what you want is long-term reliability, get a Lexus. But for the many car enthusiasts who don't need or want to own a car beyond 100,000 miles (and many trade them at 50,000 miles or less), then getting a German car often makes sense if you want one, because you're avoiding all the long-term headaches that often comes with long-term ownership.
Yet, most car enthusiasts would love to own the latest Porsche every 2 to 3 years if their budget allowed for such a pleasure.
Last edited by KevinGS; 07-27-16 at 02:23 PM.
07-27-16, 02:23 PM
#51
Lead Lap
And you know I know this, Dave, because remember I have 2 Lexuses, one with 250,000+ miles and another with 300,000+ miles. So you're just preaching to the choir.
And remember, I'm the one that said I would never own a German car out of warranty, not even a VW. Yet I've logged hundreds of thousands Lexus miles without a warranty.
I was simply stating that none of those German cars are rock solid beyond 150,000 miles (and some at a number less than that)....and when they break down, they often cost a ton of money.
So if what you want is long-term reliability, get a Lexus. But for the many car enthusiasts who don't need or want to own a car beyond 100,000 miles (and many trade them at 50,000 miles or less), then getting a German car often makes sense if you want one, because you're avoiding all the long-term headaches that often comes with long-term ownership.
But most car enthusiasts would love to own the latest Porsche every 2 to 3 years if their budget allowed for such a pleasure.
And remember, I'm the one that said I would never own a German car out of warranty, not even a VW. Yet I've logged hundreds of thousands Lexus miles without a warranty.
I was simply stating that none of those German cars are rock solid beyond 150,000 miles (and some at a number less than that)....and when they break down, they often cost a ton of money.
So if what you want is long-term reliability, get a Lexus. But for the many car enthusiasts who don't need or want to own a car beyond 100,000 miles (and many trade them at 50,000 miles or less), then getting a German car often makes sense if you want one, because you're avoiding all the long-term headaches that often comes with long-term ownership.
But most car enthusiasts would love to own the latest Porsche every 2 to 3 years if their budget allowed for such a pleasure.
07-27-16, 03:22 PM
#52
I've known a guy in service at a local Acura dealer that takes care of two Acura's that we've owned for some time now, super nice guy and very trustworthy. When I asked him if he knew anyone in service at Audi and BMW that I could speak to before making a decision after driving the RS 5 and M4 he immediately connected me with service managers that he knew. Honest to God truth here, the service manager at Audi drove an IS 350, and the guy at BMW drove a TL Type S. Neither one recommended the cars I mentioned for long term ownership/purchase and said I would be better off with the Lexus. That went a long way with us, I found it interesting that guys that saw these cars day in and day out drove Japanese cars (and both stated they could easily afford models from the manufacturer they worked for) and a big reason we were leaning towards the Lexus were for the obvious reliability reasons.
I haven't owned a German car in ages, but my brother-in-law is a big BMW fan and is always telling me about issues he's having with his M3 and X5 yet he says it comes with the territory and he's ok with it. I don't get it... My neighbor had a GL550 for a while until the engine developed a noise that necessitated replacing the engine. MB worked with him on splitting the bill, but he immediately traded it in on a new MDX. If I leased cars I might be a bit more willing to gamble (I really like the new MB C63S coupe, I don't like the M twins at all) but I purchase my cars and try to hand on to them for as long as possible. I couldn't see doing that with a German car without incurring massive expenses down the road.
I haven't owned a German car in ages, but my brother-in-law is a big BMW fan and is always telling me about issues he's having with his M3 and X5 yet he says it comes with the territory and he's ok with it. I don't get it... My neighbor had a GL550 for a while until the engine developed a noise that necessitated replacing the engine. MB worked with him on splitting the bill, but he immediately traded it in on a new MDX. If I leased cars I might be a bit more willing to gamble (I really like the new MB C63S coupe, I don't like the M twins at all) but I purchase my cars and try to hand on to them for as long as possible. I couldn't see doing that with a German car without incurring massive expenses down the road.
07-27-16, 04:08 PM
#53
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
I just don't get why some people would own or lease Germans with so many issues over and over again. The snack bar must be that good in the waiting room while the car is being fixed under warranty over and over again
07-27-16, 04:30 PM
#54
Driver School Candidate
It seems this GEICO MBI is a cheaper and better alternative to an extended warrantly as it covers ALL parts. But another additional expense just to drive the almighty BMW? No thanks. I will stick with my Lexus and the peace of mind it gives me. Thanks for the info, though..
07-27-16, 04:40 PM
#55
Driver School Candidate
the front is what attracted me to buy the Rcf in the first place! Guess everyone has different taste and the front is too aggressive for toned down folks that like to blend in. Same goes for the colors.
Good luck on the M3. Even if it gets delivered it might end up having more issues and spend a lot more time in the shop garage than yours.
Good luck on the M3. Even if it gets delivered it might end up having more issues and spend a lot more time in the shop garage than yours.
07-27-16, 05:03 PM
#56
Lead Lap
If you buy the mbi in place of the extended warranty, then this would not be an extra cost as you are essentially substituting the extended warranty with Geico's MBI. I do not know how it works, but in reading the limited details it looks like it is less expensive alternative to ESP. My MBI quote is only $116 per year with a $250 deductible. Overall cost to insure the M3 for me is $700 per year including the MBI coverage compared to $900 per year on my IS350 without the MBI coverage. It's weird that the newer car is cheaper to insure.
07-27-16, 05:26 PM
#57
Lexus Test Driver
And you know I know this, Dave, because remember I have 2 Lexuses, one with 250,000+ miles and another with 300,000+ miles. So you're just preaching to the choir.
And remember, I'm the one that said I would never own a German car out of warranty, not even a VW. Yet I've logged hundreds of thousands Lexus miles without a warranty.
I was simply stating that none of those German cars are rock solid beyond 150,000 miles (and some at a number less than that)....and when they break down, they often cost a ton of money.
So if what you want is long-term reliability, get a Lexus. But for the many car enthusiasts who don't need or want to own a car beyond 100,000 miles (and many trade them at 50,000 miles or less), then getting a German car often makes sense if you want one, because you're avoiding all the long-term headaches that often comes with long-term ownership.
Yet, most car enthusiasts would love to own the latest Porsche every 2 to 3 years if their budget allowed for such a pleasure.
And remember, I'm the one that said I would never own a German car out of warranty, not even a VW. Yet I've logged hundreds of thousands Lexus miles without a warranty.
I was simply stating that none of those German cars are rock solid beyond 150,000 miles (and some at a number less than that)....and when they break down, they often cost a ton of money.
So if what you want is long-term reliability, get a Lexus. But for the many car enthusiasts who don't need or want to own a car beyond 100,000 miles (and many trade them at 50,000 miles or less), then getting a German car often makes sense if you want one, because you're avoiding all the long-term headaches that often comes with long-term ownership.
Yet, most car enthusiasts would love to own the latest Porsche every 2 to 3 years if their budget allowed for such a pleasure.
Porsches are not typically driven a lot, but they tend to be driven hard when driven. Mine with 35,000 miles had 750 hp at the wheels and was my daily driver for 3 years. That car was driven harder on a daily basis than any of those high milege Lexus you mentioned were ever driven.
I would put any year Porsche turbo up against a Lexus, especially if driven similarly. Turbos cases are different than NAs and they are bullet proof. The air cooleds are also going strong with 150,000 + miles and are still be tracked with that milege.
Porsches are cheap maintenance wise compared to other true sports cars. Lol, my first Ferrari engine out service ended up being $17,000 for a 355 16 years ago . . .
If one is stressed out over Porsche repair bills, you perhaps overstretched yourself buying it in the first place or purchased the cheaper used models that were cheap due to not being properly maintained and/or were abused/over revved.
Nithing wrong with Bimmers, but the RCF is actually a much better all around car for the price than the M. Never thought I would ever purchase a Lexus and was not all that into the LFA. BMW is more about perceived status to most die hard fans than anything else.
The new sports coupe to check out is the new Mercedes C and S AMG coupes and now we have the Porsche 991.2 C4S likely sub 3 seconds 0-60. The new turbo will likely be sub 2.5 seconds. There are some awesome choices out there for daily drivers.
07-27-16, 05:30 PM
#58
Lexus Test Driver
I have no idea how they figure their numbers. But my RC F is more to insure than the Porsche Cayman S I almost bought. By about $400 per year for the exact same coverages. The Porsche had more blue book value and they are similar in performance stats, but I guess the HP difference is what changed to rate so drastically (325 vs 467).
07-27-16, 05:47 PM
#59
Driver School Candidate
Mechanical breakdown insurance. It is offered by Geico. It covers repairs to the following systems: Engine, transmission, drive axle, steering, cooling, suspension, a/c, brakes, and electrical. It is available to vehicles with less than 15,000 miles that have been purchased within the last 15 months.
07-27-16, 06:42 PM
#60
Lead Lap
^^ What they said.
My insurance quotes didn't include MBI. The vehicles I quoted were under factory warranty so I have no need for it. It was for comprehensive, collision, rental coverage, roadside assiatance, etc... If I keep this RC F past 50k miles then I may look into it if it appears to be a better option than an extended warranty.
Edit: Nevermind. I looked it up myself. They want you to buy it when you don't actually need it (at 15k miles, or sooner) and then you can renew it for up to 7 years or 100,000 miles. So until you get over 50k miles on your RC F you don't really need their coverage. The factory coverage will cover the same stuff.
I would have to do the math on it and compare to what an extended warranty would cost. But I'm betting that I would either pay the same or more to have their coverage. Especially since just for a regular insurance quote I did back in April they were about $100 more for 6 months than my current provider (which is why I kept my current provider). But this is an assumption.
My insurance quotes didn't include MBI. The vehicles I quoted were under factory warranty so I have no need for it. It was for comprehensive, collision, rental coverage, roadside assiatance, etc... If I keep this RC F past 50k miles then I may look into it if it appears to be a better option than an extended warranty.
Edit: Nevermind. I looked it up myself. They want you to buy it when you don't actually need it (at 15k miles, or sooner) and then you can renew it for up to 7 years or 100,000 miles. So until you get over 50k miles on your RC F you don't really need their coverage. The factory coverage will cover the same stuff.
I would have to do the math on it and compare to what an extended warranty would cost. But I'm betting that I would either pay the same or more to have their coverage. Especially since just for a regular insurance quote I did back in April they were about $100 more for 6 months than my current provider (which is why I kept my current provider). But this is an assumption.
Last edited by Davew77; 07-27-16 at 07:22 PM.