Ryanmcd

I guess I should stop trading the S&P e-mini and give your my money because you know where markets are going. One thing I have seen is you go off the past to see the feature in most markets not sure if Lexus as a BRAND has a strong resale value one car would kill it but I am sure the same thing was said about other cars they have released.

Also who buys a car for resale? If that's your biggest thing you need a better job or get a car that costs less if that's keeping you up at night or find a different hobby.

TheBatman

Lexus as a brand has a stellar record for sales and some cars in their lineup hold their value. (notably the RX, ES, IS). But that doesn't mean that it will do well in specialized market segments and that these vehicles will also hold their value.

Nissan has solid sales numbers too yet the GT-R which was and still does punch way above its class performance wise depreciates like a rock. There's not much of a demand for them. Buyers shopping in that price range buy a 911.

Just like in the RCF market segment, buyers gravitate towards the M4. Now there is a difference, the RC-F stands more toe to toe with the BMW than the Nissan does with the Porsche. But the M3/M4 has dominated this market segment much in the same way the Ford F150 dominates the pickup market segment which by the way is the #1 selling vehicle in north america and a market segment where the foreign car companies can't seem to make much of a dent.

Everyone. You're going to trade in the vehicle at some point right? Either on a lease turn in or a trade on another vehicle. Resale value/Residual is an extremely important figure for both of these scenarios. The sole exception being if you intend on driving the car into the ground for years to come.

AussieISF

Yes it's the same here in Australia too, RCFs aren't selling. Sales guy at dealership calls me every month to try to get me to trade over. However at least Lexus in Australia is smart and only bringing in very limited numbers so they don't flood the market.

I usually buy them with around 4k miles on them as a demonstrator, can usually get 20% of retail on what is essentially a new car.

But I'm holding off for the GSF.

aristott

Drive your RC-F in Germany and see how many M4's turn your car in turtle soup on the autobahn.
I love the car but it's not just a little slower, it's like a Corolla racing a Supra. When I drove my RC-F for 2500 miles back in Florida I thought it was great in traffic, normal driving, a little squeeze here and there. Now averaging 120mph legally in Germany and catching these Audi's, M4's, M3's makes me feel my engine fell out of the car. It's just embarrassing to read people writing about the M4 being in the same class, NO it's NOT.
Lexus seems to have valued the option of the IS250 owners and fan boys, never from owners who are looking for a serious contender.
BMW gives us the option to buy carbon ceramic brakes and tons of other options. In the handling sector the BMW holds the corners much more steady as the RC-F weight is not it's friend, the GT-R weighs less imagine that. BMW has it's clubs who are very active with track days, the clubs are in touch with each other internationally where US owners fly over to Germany to meet, either picking up a Euro delivery, shipping their cars or just meeting.
the Lexus clubs are very lacking in being organized and look I was at the Nurburgring a few weeks ago and saw the BMW guys meeting, even US owners but where's the Lexus guys? I don't want to hear the history thing, it's just Lexus has not brought a car out on the market to attract owners who really want a world class contender.

PS: I have never owned a BMW ever but respect the cult following. As a Lexus owner for 19 years I've evolved and as fan always went them to release world class contenders, not old man cars.. The day I want a big sedan like an LS, why buy the LS? it's slow, no options, so I have no choice to buy a new S63 AMG.

johnnyreb

Why buy an LS? Either you're still Really young or Don't have a Family, cause there's NOT a Better Car to take a Family Road Trip in. That is IF you want a Ride that feels like you're riding on Air & just Oooozes Luxury & Style! You CAN'T beat an LS460 for a Road Trip, Family or NOT! as far as being Slow, Hell it's NOT Supposed to be a Friggin' Race Car!

DougHII

Kind of hard to have that kind of following considering Lexus has not been truly in the sports car market until 2015 with the RC F. The LFA does not really count for the purpose to which you speak.

I am hearing that the LF-LC will make it to production. I will pick one up as soon as it comes out if true. This car will certainly keep up with those Autobahn burners that seem to have frustrated you.

Not sure Lexus will tweak too much more out of the RC F as they will need to keep some performance separation between the RC F and the LF-LC if they put the LF-LC into production. The LF-LC, however, could really start to expand the Lexus brand into the market segments that purchase M cars and 911s. Attract gear heads and track junkies into the brand and we will slowly start seeing Lexus performance oriented clubs at track events and etc. It will take a few years though before there are enough people out there.

TheBatman

I doubt that the LF-LC will attract these buyers. It really boils down to perception. Its the same exact scenario that plays out in the pickup segment. People who shop for a pickup in north america overwhelmingly buy domestic and the #1 pickup and vehicle with the most total sales is the Ford F150.

The Japanese have tried and tried to break into this market segment b/c of the sales potential. But despite having what I believe are better pickups, they can't seem to make any meaningful sales that rival the domestics.

The same thing happens with performance cars. There's two tiers, American and German. People shopping for sports cars gravitate towards American and German ones depending on income. The sales figures again prove this point. And again this boils down to perception. American sports cars have a reputation for being raw brute power. German sports cars have a reputation for being the best performance cars on the planet.

The Japanese have repeatedly tried to gain a foothold in this market with little to no success sales wise. The most notable Japanese sports car is the Nissan Z and despite its decades in the north american market, its sales are dwarfed by the Mustang and Camaro.

The other big problem is that the performance gains you will get on a Japanese sports car will be minimal b/c the sales don't justify further development. The exception is the GT-R but I think that has more to do with Carlos Ghosn's management style than anything else.

So even if the LF-LC comes out with guns blazing in its segment, the German players will continue to improve while the Lexus remains stagnant.

DougHII

LF-LC has cutting edge super car looks. If Lexus matches the looks with performance, it will sell as will the NSX. The GTR does not have cutting edge super car looks and is a very one dimensional car.

There are multiple 911 guys on here, including myself, that picked up the RC F this year. I suspect there would be more had the RC F come in around 3,700 pounds. Even then, it will take Lexus time to break into this segment. A relatively cheap $ 70k RC F won't necessarily do that, but a car with cutting edge super car looks, a high end interior and performance to match will attract buyers.

While sports car guys generally pay respect for the GTR, it seems more lip service than true enthusiasm. For whatever reason, I and most never considered one at any price point. Is it dated looks, awful interior, the Nissan badge or horrible, rough ride and handling on public streets??? I dunno, but the the NSX has shown that people will flock to a well rounded and cutting edge sports car design with a Japanese badge.

. . ., but lol . . . at someone who continues to troll a Lexus RC F site for no other reason that to point out in every post that the RC F is a bomb and to put Lexus in their place, i.e., Lexus will never make it in a sports car market.

Neither one of us have crystal ball, but you have to be blind or simply obtuse if you cannot see the beauty and potential in the LF-LC. I mean, just look at this thing. Awesome at any price!

http://lexus.worldcarmodels.net/lexu...-lfa-2015.html

Ryanmcd

This is a good point, I had an NSX and each year everything else gets better and they never changed that car so no reason to get a new one and sales died, I hope they learn to make things better over time. The one thing that kills me on the German cars or at least BMW is just how bad everything else is outside of the performance, fit and finish / maintenance / service issues is Porsche the same way?

Did they not keep making the ISF better each year? I know the engine was about the same but I think they had a few tweeks here and there.

I can only hope they don't blow it on this car So now NSX or LF LC or whatever that other Lexus is called

DougHII

I like Porsche fit and finish. Never really had any issues here and I put some serious miles on a few that I owned. I think I put around 80k on an 04 996tt cab, had top down whenever possible (wind deflector and A/C worked awesome) and never had nay issues with fit or finish. The only issues I ever had with a 993tt, 2 996tts and a 997tt was spoiler not going up on an 01 996tt resulting in instrument cluster being replaced and I had to have 2 long brake fluid hoses replaced on the 04 tt cab. Dealer service department failed to diagnosis the problem as a slave or master cylinder going bad causing pressure in the line one first hose replacement.

No interior problems, convertible top held up well, paint great, yadda, yada yada. Porsches are one of the most durable, easy to maintain, easy to drive around town high end sports cars on the market. There is a reason people are so loyal to the brand.

BMWs on the other hand . . . My limited experience was completely the opposite. Never buy one again.

The NSX was definitely under powered in later years, but it still had it following. I almost pulled the trigger on a used a couple of time just because I liked the looks, but each time I went with a different garage queen instead.

TheBatman

The GT-R was improved upon year after year but that's b/c of Carlos Ghosn's management style. If Nissan was head up by a native Japanese, I doubt the GT-R would have been improved upon. The NSX demonstrates how the Japanese tackle niche market segments. They tend to make an upfront investment, produce a spectacular product, and then never improve on it b/c sales are never there to justify it or they want to keep the profits high. So don't expect much in terms of improvements for the RCF. Keep in mind its only now that Lexus has dropped the 2.5 L V6 from the IS lineup. That engine was a performance embarrassment for years, but Lexus still kept it in their lineup.

Don't expect any dramatic changes for the RCF.

DougHII

This market segment is quiet a bit different today than during the first run NSX. Acura did rest on its laurels and let NSX become stagnet. The new interneration shows promiser.

I don't think any of us can be so presumptuous to say what Lexus may or may not do with their line up in the future as to their performance line up in the current market.

My only point that got derailed is that the LC-LF appears to be an awesome offering, will garner much attention and has the potential to lure the 911 market segmented buyers. Super car looks at a $ 150,000 price tag is appealing.

TheBatman

Actually, Dougie we can. Just using Lexus's own 2.5L V6 as an example. That engine was severely underpowered but Lexus didn't improve it for years. Now its being replaced by a turbo 4 banger and the 3.5L is being detuned and couple with AWD for the two entry level IS vehicles. And this is on one of their better selling models in their vehicle lineup.

The market segment is more stratified but the laws of economics have remained consistent. The original NSX did exactly what Honda intended it to do. It was a production exercise by Honda to create a supercar that was reliable and easy to drive day to day. Honda had no intention of drastically improving it mechanically.

They're following the same process this time around with the new NSX. The new NSX plant is tooled for a production run of a few years using 100 existing workers and for worldwide export. There is no intention in their business plan to make significant improvements to the vehicle during its production run.

Toyota has gotten a little smarter in the last few years and has coupled with Subaru for the BRZ/FRS and with BMW for the next Supra. But even with economies of scale the automaker is very timid and seems averse to making improvements to vehicles that don't sell in significant numbers.

Sure its awesome. The LFA was awesome. But if the LFA is any indicator expect Lexus like Honda with the NSX, to tool production for a set number of units without making any significant improvements.

DougHII

Lol, . . . Dougie . . . some apparently did not get enough attention when young. A 2.5 liter is not a part of the Lexus performance line. Gotta love the efforts to pontificate about decisions of others that have yet to be made. Only time will tell and who really cares NOW what they do or don't do to the RC F or LF-LC in 3 to 5 years. Chello . . . WTH we talkin bout. STHU and drive . . . and I gotta work or I will be stuck here all day on a beautiful Sunday . . .

parasitius

Wish there was a post like feature like on some forums. Anyway, fascinating post!! Thank you