RC F (2015-present) Discussion topics related to the RC F model

Interview with RC-F chief engineer (Lexus Europe)

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Old 03-13-14, 07:38 PM
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jat0223
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Originally Posted by ISF001
This is not true. Folks tend to believe every F model year was identical. By 2012, the F was matching the M3 on the track and even edging ahead in 0-60 runs.

Many of the critiques leaned towards the F as the winner in performance and overall enjoyment comparisons.

Give the beast it's deserved credit.
Exactly but it wasn't by 2012 though, it was by 2011. The isf has always beat manual M3s and edged out DCT ones in straight line. The change was in the curves.
Old 03-13-14, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by jat0223
Exactly but it wasn't by 2012 though, it was by 2011. The isf has always beat manual M3s and edged out DCT ones in straight line. The change was in the curves.
Not true. Manual M3 requires a lot of skills to drive it to really get the best launch and power out of the high-revving V8. So it is much easier for IS-F to deliver consistent performance regardless of driver. In the right hands, the manual M3 easily matched the IS-F or in some cases, it beat the IS-F.

Caranddriver actually had a manual M3 sedan edge out the IS-F by 2/10ths of a second (12.6 seconds vs 12.8 seconds). The M-DCT is also a driver's race. Plenty of videos I can post here where an M-DCT M3 comfortably beat the IS-F.

All in all, driver's race in a straight line between IS-F and M3. Too close to call.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...fications.html


6 speed manual M3 vs IS-F


Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 03-13-14 at 09:05 PM.
Old 03-13-14, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 05RollaXRS
Not true. Manual M3 requires a lot of skills to drive it to really get the best launch and power out of the high-revving V8. So it is much easier for IS-F to deliver consistent performance regardless of driver. In the right hands, the manual M3 easily matched the IS-F or in some cases, it beat the IS-F.

Caranddriver actually had a manual M3 sedan edge out the IS-F by 2/10ths of a second (12.6 seconds vs 12.8 seconds). The M-DCT is also a driver's race. Plenty of videos I can post here where an M-DCT M3 comfortably beat the IS-F.

All in all, driver's race in a straight line between IS-F and M3. Too close to call.
Not true? Even in the BMW website they show that the manual M3 is slower than the DCT M3 and this has been my real life experience as well. I also can post a lot of YouTube videos showing the ISF beating all sorts of M3s so there's no point. Also official magazines times have the isf as high as 13 to as low as 12.3 stock. You have to know how to drive the isf to get the best time as well. given similar circumstances though what I mentioned it's accurate. Manual M3 is slower than both ISF and DCT M3.

Last edited by jat0223; 03-13-14 at 09:32 PM.
Old 03-13-14, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jat0223
Not true? Even in the BMW website they show that the manual M3 is slower than the DCT M3 and this has been my real life experience as well. I also can post a lot of YouTube videos showing the ISF beating all sorts of M3s so there's no point. Also official magazines times have the isf as high as 13 to as low as 12.3 stock. You have to know how to drive the isf to get the best time as well. given similar circumstances though what I mentioned it's accurate. Manual M3 is slower than both ISF and DCT M3.
There is no magazine that ever tested an IS-F at 12.3 seconds. I can tell you that. 12.6 - 13.1 seconds is what you will find. I would require proper source with link to back that up.

In the head to head comparison I posted above (motor trend and caranddriver), it was even in one and M3 by 2/10 ths in the other.

A manual car requires real skills to get the best out of it compared to an automatic that will run consistently the same time every single time. That is why an automatic has the upper hand in a drag race.

On an M3 forum, there was a real world comparison video done between M3 manual and M-DCT M3 by one of the M3 forums and they were both neck and beck. However, the manual M3 driver had exceptional driver who really knew how to shift fast

Stock M3 6 speed manual vs Stock M3 M-DCT



Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 03-13-14 at 10:01 PM.
Old 03-13-14, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by 05RollaXRS
There is no magazine that ever tested an IS-F at 12.3 seconds. I can tell you that. 12.6 - 13.1 seconds is what you will find. I would require proper source with link to back that up.

In the head to head comparison I posted above (motor trend and caranddriver), it was even in one and M3 by 2/10 ths in the other.

A manual car requires real skills to get the best out of it compared to an automatic that will run consistently the same time every single time.

On an M3 forum, there was a real world comparison video done between M3 manual and M-DCT M3 by one of the M3 forums and they were both neck and beck. However, the manual M3 driver had exceptional driver who really knew how to shift fast
Well I guess BMW as well as the tests done showing that the DCT M3 is faster than the manual M3 are wrong then so I'll end the argument there.
Old 03-13-14, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by jat0223
Well I guess BMW as well as the tests done showing that the DCT M3 is faster than the manual M3 are wrong then so I'll end the argument there.
The quickest time a M-DCT in tests is almost identical that of the 6 speed manual M3. Both seem to do mid-to-high 12s on their best runs. It is the same as the sedan officially was marketed as having a slower time than the coupe. However, all tests in real life showed they were identical.

The video is proof above that stock for stock the manual can match the M-DCT in straight line. It is not impossible.

Back to the topic, I hope the RC-F at least matches the M4/M3 in a straight line and beats the heck out of it around the track.

Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 03-13-14 at 10:25 PM.
Old 03-13-14, 10:46 PM
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I hope so too, but I'm having serious doubts and this quote from Mark Templin it's not helping. Like I said before, I think the RCF will be exactly like the LFA. It won't outperform the competition but it'll be the best drivers car in the segment which will make it the most fun to drive. .

“It’s not about zero to 60 or zero to 100 or braking from 100 to zero*or any of those, it’s when you put all of those things together to make it the most balanced car is what they’re trying to create, not the fastest or the one that will go around the corner best, it’s about balance of all of those things.”
Old 03-14-14, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by jat0223
I hope so too, but I'm having serious doubts and this quote from Mark Templin it's not helping. Like I said before, I think the RCF will be exactly like the LFA. It won't outperform the competition but it'll be the best drivers car in the segment which will make it the most fun to drive. .

“It’s not about zero to 60 or zero to 100 or braking from 100 to zero*or any of those, it’s when you put all of those things together to make it the most balanced car is what they’re trying to create, not the fastest or the one that will go around the corner best, it’s about balance of all of those things.”
I think even RC-F does not set records on tracks, I would really like it to be so engaging and exciting that it wins comparisons (like you mentioned, LFA was able to do that in comparisons against Aventador, best engine of the year award, "greatest cars list" and 599 GTO etc. even when it was not even to close to the most powerful supercar out there).
Old 03-20-14, 03:12 PM
  #24  
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Interviewer sounds quite stupid since he seems to sound like a broken record regarding turbo engines. Yaguchi san held his own in his response. Well said.

Lexus UK Blog: http://blog.lexus.co.uk/2014/03/lexu...ihiko-yaguchi/


“This is the most exciting sports car in our range”, says Lexus chief engineer Yukihiko Yaguchi, describing the new Lexus RC F at its launch at the 2014 Geneva motor show.

First revealed at the Detroit motor show in January, the Lexus RC F has now made its European debut alongside a new racing GT3 version. It’s powered by a revolutionary 5.0-litre, 32-valve V8 engine – which with more than 450bhp, will make it one of the most powerful cars in its class.

For the engineers among you, the new engine uses both the Otto and Atkinson ignition cycles to deliver improved performance and efficiency, offering an advanced variable valve timing (VVT) system to manage its fuel consumption and power output. The two-door Lexus RC F is set to take the fight to the BMW M4 and Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG. Here’s Yaguchi-san’s take on the upcoming battle, in his own words…

Damion Smy: Why a V8 powerplant when BMW, for instance, has decided to fit a turbocharged six-cylinder?
Yukihiko Yaguchi: ”First of all, the V8 engine format is the most appropriate for a sports car engine. The reason is that when we talk about sport driving, the torque feel – the acceleration – is most important, and that’s what the V8 format gives. This can also be said for the V10 in the LFA, but if you put under load the torque characteristic [of the V10] is very smooth, but as you go under load it [the V8] gives almost a heartbeat feeling.”

DS: How have you managed to avoid turbocharging – or is that a deliberate point of difference for the RC F?
YY: ”For the ‘F’ brand, the powerplant – the engine – is an important identity, so for this reason we would keep a specifically designed engine. We’ve managed to incorporate detailed electronic control on the intake side of VVT, so at maximum, we are able to finely control the amount of air reaching the engine. What that means is in actual terms is better efficiency. By adjusting the valve opening, we can change the engine’s performance – making it run like an Atkinson cycle engine. This gives you an equivalent downsizing of 800cc, and the efficiency of a 4.2-litre engine. Of course, when you go to a wide-open throttle, you get the Otto cycle so get maximum power, [and] being naturally aspirated, you get a really high responsiveness.

DS: So a turbo doesn’t offer the driving character you wanted?
YY: “If you look at a turbocharged engine, if you look at its torque characteristics, as you get into higher revs it has a slightly flat character. Whereas, what we’re looking for is a synchronisation of the engine’s speed to the torque feel you get, and this is what you can achieve with a naturally aspirated engine – that heightened sense of torque as you go into the higher revs. This is what we wanted. Having said that, if we can find a turbo that offers use the same, then we have a choice to go turbo….”

DS: Would sequential twin-turbos have offered a similar solution while meeting the new “Euro 6” exhaust emissions laws?

YY: ”If you look at a typical engine room that has a twin or even a triple turbo, the structure itself becomes quite complex, and you would have to think about the intercooler… so it’s hard to find packaging space. And other manufacturers are facing the same issue [meeting Euro 6, while developing adequate performance and drivability], so you can see them going from perhaps eight-cylinders to six-cylinders, or if they’re doing a V8, then swapping of intake and exhausts just to make room for that.”

DS: How hard was it to meet new emissions legislation with the new V8?
YY: ”It was indeed very difficult; because Euro 6 is a very stringent restriction. Might I add that the [V8 engine in the] IS F at the time met Euro 5 regulation, so you can think of it as an evolution. Some of the items – we talked about increasing the power using the electronic VVT (variable valve timing) – those kind of things that we were able to go into finer calibration… and the D4S [direct injection] system has evolved.”

DS: What are your future plans for turbocharged engines
YY: ”If we talk about turbos and such technologies – this is something that in the future we don’t think we can avoid, and we will be investigating – perhaps at the time of a new platform introduction.

“If there is an optimal time, we might go from having many cylinders to having a turbo.”

DS: What about a dual-clutch transmission? Would that help CO2 as well?
YY: ”I don’t think it would contribute to a lower CO2. If you have a look at the automatic gearboxes of today, after second gear, they’re in full-lock up, so there’s no difference. Also, in the low gears we have the torque convertor that’s very smooth, and this is something that we believe will be more important, as even in Europe, traffic jams are increasing…”

DS: How important is the RC F to the Lexus brand?
YY: ”I think this car is showing the direction for us. The GT3 is highlighting the potential for participation in motorsports, while the RC F is showing the emotional styling aspect that we would like to reach out with for the Lexus brand, so you can see this more emotional styling coming through, and hopefully that will give emotional value to the Lexus line-up.”

Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 03-20-14 at 03:43 PM.
Old 03-20-14, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by 05RollaXRS
The quickest time a M-DCT in tests is almost identical that of the 6 speed manual M3. Both seem to do mid-to-high 12s on their best runs. It is the same as the sedan officially was marketed as having a slower time than the coupe. However, all tests in real life showed they were identical.

The video is proof above that stock for stock the manual can match the M-DCT in straight line. It is not impossible.

Back to the topic, I hope the RC-F at least matches the M4/M3 in a straight line and beats the heck out of it around the track.
Originally Posted by jat0223
Not true? Even in the BMW website they show that the manual M3 is slower than the DCT M3 and this has been my real life experience as well. I also can post a lot of YouTube videos showing the ISF beating all sorts of M3s so there's no point. Also official magazines times have the isf as high as 13 to as low as 12.3 stock. You have to know how to drive the isf to get the best time as well. given similar circumstances though what I mentioned it's accurate. Manual M3 is slower than both ISF and DCT M3.
I actually was under the same premise too, the M-DCT M3 was ever so slightly faster than the manual. but that being joe schmoe vs joe schmoe, not joe schmoe vs pro driver
Old 03-20-14, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jdmSW20
I actually was under the same premise too, the M-DCT M3 was ever so slightly faster than the manual. but that being joe schmoe vs joe schmoe, not joe schmoe vs pro driver
Joe Schmoe only matters in a straight line for a manual transmission. It is completely irrelevant in a DCT car unless the driver does not know how to hold a steering straight. As the videos show above, a great driver in a manual could match the DCT with proper skills. The manual has a shorter final drive (although, longer gear ratios), which require less shifts.

Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 03-20-14 at 09:51 PM.
Old 03-20-14, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by 05RollaXRS
Joe Schmoe only matters in a straight line for a manual transmission. It is completely irrelevant in a DCT car unless the driver does not know how to hold a steering straight. As the videos show above, a great driver in a manual could match the DCT with proper skills. The manual has a shorter final drive (although, longer gear ratios), which require less shifts.
oh yeah i dont doubt that at all. im sure the cars are alot closer when you have skilled enough driver in the manul and your everyday guy in the M-DCT. but everyday normal person in both, im sure the M-DCT will prevail everytime. thats what i meant.

but the difference in acceleration between the 2 statistically where still close but the M-DCT had the edge(on paper)
Old 03-21-14, 06:45 AM
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Agreed.

Originally Posted by jdmSW20
oh yeah i dont doubt that at all. im sure the cars are alot closer when you have skilled enough driver in the manul and your everyday guy in the M-DCT. but everyday normal person in both, im sure the M-DCT will prevail everytime. thats what i meant.

but the difference in acceleration between the 2 statistically where still close but the M-DCT had the edge(on paper)
Old 03-27-14, 03:53 PM
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The 3900 lbs weight and its impact have been greatly exaggerated.

I was looking at the "Camaro Z-28 vs Nissan GTR" comparo video and the Camaro Z-28 with stripped out interior, without A/C, without power seats, stereo (only 1 speaker) etc. still weighed 3900 lbs (similar to the stripped out Nissan GTR).

Not only did the 500 HP Camaro Z-28 outperform the Nissan GTR around the track, they called it one of the best track performer they have ever tested. The Camaro Z-28 handily beat the Nissan GTR because it was a much more exciting and driver-oriented car.

My point is, it is still possible to build a great, RWD, track and driver oriented car with 3900 lbs. If RC-F weighs 3900 lbs, but has killer driving dynamics and about 480 HP then it will be a huge winner.
Old 03-27-14, 04:00 PM
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The RC F like the GT R has some nice trick gadgets up its sleeve to mask its weight I am assuming and "defy physics". There should be no confusion that the car is based off the big GS and with a big V-8 and all the extras weight around the GS should be expected. The IS is no lightweight either.

Would a lighter car be great? Sure would. Is it a deal breaker for most? No it is not.


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