Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

and yet 100% of folks who've discussed getting some made and switching to them were never heard from again... odd that.

mbeach

Maybe it's because they don't want to sit on a $1000 dollars worth of paperweights while they source the other components for a non-existent kit. Internals go in last, it's just nice to know they are out there for when the time comes (when 6psi isn't enough.)

Kingdavid

iTrader: (1)

Well $1108 before install actually ha, and that's without Rods. Fortunately they arent one-of productions, just expensive like everything else for our cars. But with people having already dropped +$10k on fi and being limited (as all knowing Kurtz says) by compression another 2 grand to grab at higher boost isn't really a huge deal.

My personal worries are that I don't know how the lex is going to like me screwing with her compression. She's my dd so I need her to work every day. Not to thread hijack but, any thoughts on this?

06isDriver

my concern as well......

mbeach

I figure on the turbo side, she'll be as gutless as any other car until it spools up. Maybe that tall ring gear will negate some of that off the lights.
Supercharged might be a little different.

I've offered my car up to Squire's since I'm close, and I rarely drive it. If they get enough interest (we've heard that before...) they will use my car as a mule for a bolt on kit.

One of my concerns is tuning, which is a long way from my area of expertise. I'd want to see a really good programmable boost controller that will keep me from turning my tires to smoke at every upshift (or sending the traction control into fits).
The other is fueling, until there's a (reasonable) way to control the port injectors, we're dead in the water over 6psi.

With the work that 06isDriver, HKS350 and others have done, I see 15psi as a reality for @$6k. IMO, that's a better price point for that level of performance.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

It certainly would be a better price for performance point... but it's also the low end of what any actual FI company has managed to produce price-wise, with only 5-6 psi of boost, and no aftermarket engine internals or tuning.

I suppose it's possible HKS, TOMs, LMS, etc were just jacking their prices up 100% from what they could've profitably sold the kits for, but otherwise I don't see how you get a commercial kit including all the engine internals, fuel upgrades, and tuning that 15 psi would require anywhere near that price.

(and that assumes the rest of the powertrain will take 15psi)

But the HKS F-con that HKS350 is using, plus the custom pistons, that's $2500 alone (assuming you can do the tuning yourself, hardly a given for most owners) and you haven't actually bough any part of the FI kit yet, let alone solved the fuel issue (or any other internals you might need, or any of the labor to swap this stuff inside the motor if you don't DIY)

I could see a way someone could cobble together a kit doing all their own work, finding a used SC or turbo, making their own plumbing, etc for that price maybe... but not so much a commercial kit because I think it'd be tough to make a complete one for that amount of boost at that price at cost.

mbeach

They overcharge, plain and simple. Low demand = sellers' market.

Squires can get you underway for @$3k. I really only need them to size the turbo, but I could probably pull it off with one of the (sadly, many) turbos I have laying about from one of my or my brother's projects (S14a, WRX, 2 E46s, 10-sec Civic), and a better oiling solution.

I wish I could find a domestic solution, not to knock HKS' products, but I'd rather see something more "home-grown" and locally tunable. As for fuel, we have the hardware (12 injectors), just need the software solution.

Thank God for innovators...

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

On the other hand, demand is so low in large part because the gains suck for the money.

And several folks have claimed they were going to develop the mythical $2500-3500 forced induction kit for the 2IS and every single one has vanished without a kit.

So I don't think it's just the ones with production kits marked their stuff up 3 times their cost.

They certainly won't get you underway at 15psi on a 2IS.

Nor even 5 psi... because the $2995 universal kit is missing quite a few items that'll need to be custom-fabricated for the car it's going on.

If it could be done at 3k installed you'd have seen folks running it by now.


And as mentioned the only one out there is Motec... at $14,000 complete, for just the engine management, not any of the FI pieces.

(and that's just the hardware of course- not the actually making it work and doing the wiring, which would be a crapton more if you're not doing it yourself)



Really, it's not like nobody has looked into this before. It's not like people who do this stuff for a living and have done it on tons of other cars haven't looked into it and tried stuff.

HKS350 has spent a fair bit of time and $ on this for example, he's a smart knowledgeable guy who knows his way around forced induction, and has stated he's not afraid of blowing up the motor in the pursuit... and yet still we don't have 15 psi. Or even 8.

LMS, HKS, TOMs, all low boost kits with poor results for high dollars.

Turbochargers.com- vaporware. The cheap-low-boost-kit from Fox Marketing- vaporware. The literally dozen or two other folks who came along, insisted they were gonna "turbo their 2IS" and knew what they were doing, and just wait and see what they produce!- vaporware.


And the mythical cheap/high boost for the 2IS still doesn't exist.

Just maybe there's a reason.



That's not to say you can't make the STS kit work... you CAN make almost anything work... but you're certainly not gonna make it work for 15 psi at $6000.

I suspect you'll be looking at pretty near 6k net cost just to get 5-7 psi out of it. Just like everyone else who has tried this.

mbeach

The horse is dead - you win.

I guess we should all just go back to lips, spoilers and ill-fitting wheels, because that's all we have, and all we're going to have - the world according to Kurtz.

For the guys who are putting themselves out there for the community, thank you. I've been "the first" before, and it's scary, so thanks again for making the effort. I'm sure it's just a matter of time until the tuning is sorted and doors start opening.

two2tone

iTrader: (10)

+1 Kurtz is annoying

heyarms

iTrader: (5)

Please follow forum rules in respecting other members.

Especially Kurtz. If he was spilling lies, you would have some backing. This man speaks only truths that people who are new into the 2IS dont like hearing. If you have an issue with a particular statement he has made, please respectfully post a rebuttal, otherwise, carry on with this thread.

/BackOnTopicPlease

LEXtegra

^^^^^^^^And thats why I love club lexus!!!!! Anyway just wanted to say that Kurtz is also very knowlegdeable. And quick to respond. I think I'm one of the few that have "proved him wrong if you will" not even that. I brought it to his attention the PPE makes headers for the AWD. And he re-adjusted his estimate for the guy who was asking how much horsepower he could get from bolt ons on a AWD250. I think he has the horsepower area covered from A-Z. People ask a question and he will be all over it to let you know ,as they say, "Whats REALLY going on"

mbeach

Kurtz, I believe in public apologies, so here goes:

It was not my intent to diminish your voice (as it seems to be most often the voice of reason), and in no way did I intend to imply that you don't know what you're talking about, as you seem to have a useful amount of knowledge on many subjects. If that's how any one took my above post, I am sorry for that.

However... (there's always a however), on THIS particular subject, your contributions seem to be taking a turn for the snide. There's always a professional naysayer, and unfortunately in this case, he's so smart on everything that no one will call him on it. Guys have been working on this for almost 6 years - do you really believe no one's going to crack this ECU -ever?

If the world ends on 12/21, and no one's putting down 15psi, you can be the first to say "I told you so!"
But until then, it's always going to be a possibility, no matter how remote. I guess what I mean to say is: lead, follow, or get out of the way.

To the Leaders, thank you. To the followers (like me), support these guys -call vendors, show interest in group buys, write your congressman, whatever. To everyone else, it's a big website.

Kurtz

iTrader: (1)

Thanks.

You see snide, I see a dose of realism. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but, and PLEASE really, don't take this the wrong way.... but you're new here. This topic, in one form or another, has been going on since 2005. With very little progress. The 2IS being hard to boost, and insanely hard to boost a lot, was an old topic when I got here in 2007. Lobuxracer was preaching the same stuff I am now long before I ever got here. This message isn't new.

More on that later.

And it's not like I'm negative on the idea of modding... prior to my IS I've owned some highly modded cars... old muscle cars (and new), a few supras, etc... my last was a >500 hp '95 Impala SS, where I did nearly all the work possible on it myself that didn't require a lift, and some close consulting when it did.... at the time it was one of the quickest NA roller cam B-bodies in the world. So if there was any reasonable way to add a ton of power for the 2IS I'd be all over it.

Yup.

Nobody has cracked the SUPRA ecu. Which came out in 1993.

And I hear there's a bit of an aftermarket in supras too.

Toyota stuff doesn't get cracked.

Folks like Cobb tuning who have done this stuff for a living for a long time have looked into it and walked away from it.... and the 2IS market is massively smaller than the supra one.

It's vastly less likely you'd see anyone crack the 2IS ECU because:

A) Aftermarket is nearly 0 compared to the supra.

B) Unlike when the Supra was in production, the DMCA exists now. Pretty huge potential fines (or even jail terms) for cracking encryption these days.

What you will see, much like the supra, is piggyback systems...and we already have em (MAPECU3 and HKS F-Con both in current use) but they don't do a lot for you besides make 7 psi stable rather than 5.5

They don't fix the 12:1 compression issue... or much of the fuel issue either.

It's already been mentioned there's one standalone that will handle all 12 injectors- from Motec. And with the ECU, sensors, and additional fuel module, runs around $14,000.

While I expect that'll come down in price eventually, it's not coming down to anything that doesn't make buying one look insane compared to just getting an IS-F instead. That might solve the fuel issue though letting you fire the port injectors at WOT.

But then you still haven't fixed compression and you're already $14,000 into the project and haven't bought the turbo kit yet.



Possible?

Sure.

Never said it wasn't possible.

I just said it wasn't possible for anything close to $6000.

You could do it right now if you felt like dropping $25,000 on an engine build, Motec setup, and turbo kit.

It just wouldn't make a lick of sense to do it versus spending half that to get an IS-F instead, which with just bolt ons would still make more power than a 15psi IS350.




This is intended to suggest NO offense to the guys doing supercharger kits today... I have a ton of respect for HKS350 and others... but 5 years ago you could buy an LMS kit and run 5 psi off the shelf.

5 years later the entire amount of progress on forced induction is that you can add a piggyback system for an extra $1500 that lets you run 7 psi instead.

That includes not only many really smart guys on these forums, but a number of companies that do forced induction kits as a major part of their business.

There are real, significant, reasons that's as far as things have gone... and it ain't just lack of trying.


Now, if someone figures out a way to get a commercially viable 7 psi kit out there for 4 grand, I think it'd sell well enough to be worth doing, and we already know that power level is possible with just a blower kit and a piggyback.

But you're not going to get much more boost than that on the stock internals and ECU.

And you're not going to get a kit that solves the fuel problem, the ECU problem, AND the compression problem, for $6000... or any reasonable price at all compared to buying an F.

Certainly not in a commercial kit anyway... (you might get a guy taking apart some other project car who happens to have a motec and most of an FI kit sitting around, who decides to invest in getting some custom LC pistons made, and gets something up and running.... and it'll be really cool...and I certainly encourage him to do it... but he's not gonna be able to sell/market a kit to repeat it for any sane price compared to getting an F)



I'm not telling you it ain't gonna happen to be a downer. I'm telling you because I've seen someone come in every few months insisting it can be done, and anyone telling em otherwise just DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THE AWESOME THEY HAVE DONE BEFORE.... and then we never hear anything from em again.

There was one dude on my.is who went on a 2 page rant about how he innovated a ton of stuff for the IS300 and had been around Lexus/Toyota stuff for so many years, and he was SURE if we came back in 2 years we'd see all sorts of high boost turbo kits on the 2IS, JUST YOU WAIT!

That was over 3 years ago.

There was the guy who insisted he knew forced induction on dozens of cars, and he (supposedly) had a turbo kit he made running 6 psi, and next week he was gonna crank it up to 10 and was sure it'd be awesome.

He did make one more post.... to mention he'd blown the motor.

Turbochargers.com.... just... look it up... yikes.

Foxmarketing was gonna make a cheap, great, supercharger kit and use it at SEMA then sell it (since they'd originally wanted something from turbochargers and that didn't work out).... instead what they did was copy the LMS kit, put a bigger intercooler on it.... Make up fake dyno numbers (which they admitted to doing) for the press release about the car, show it at SEMA... and then vanish, no kit.


And I could go on and on with more examples of it. And 0 of them have gone anywhere.

Even the folks who approached things a lot more sanely and realistically, as mentioned, haven't gotten a ton further than where LMS was 5 years ago.

Just do a search on turbo or supercharger and you'll find thread after thread, going back years, all basically rehashing the same ground with the same lack of significant change because the same limitations of the platform remain.

So please, don't take it personally in any way... but if the responses sound negative or jaded, it's because the same "Hey, I'm new, I'm sure an awesome FI kit would be easy to do cheap and safe!" thing has come up over and over and over, and never worked out well.


12:1 compression, a stock ECU you're not going to reprogram, and a complex fuel system that leaves you limited when using piggybacks. In car where for 10k more they sell one with 108 more hp and a significantly better transmission.

It's not negativity that's limiting FI on the ISx50, it's reality.


The 2IS has been on the market for almost 7 years now. And the state of FI, other than the small gain for piggybacks working, is pretty much where it was at the beginning. You can go back to 2005 and find posts where people are saying the same things you are about how you are "sure" someone will figure out solutions for all the issues soon! And it's 2012 now, and nobody really has.

And the 3rd gen comes out in less than a year.

It's a limited market to start with (4 out of every 5 2ISes sold is a 250, not a 350- and FIing a 250 makes even less sense given the 4.5k price difference to a 350), it's a very difficult and complex car to do anything with, and it's end of life as a new vehicle next year.


Honestly folks wanting a lot more power and unwilling to just get an IS-F would be better off bribing the guy in FL who did the working 2JZ swap to go back and document the swap so it can be duplicated... (though even then they'll have track/vsc lights on their dash forever, and nobody knows if the luxury features can be made to work since his was a base model car)



But if you're still absolutely sure you can throw together a 15psi setup for 6k, by all means, unlike the dozens who came before you, actually do it

Then come back here with the proof, and I'll be first in line to apologize for being wrong and shake your hand over it, and ask how you did it.

But, and again nothing personal... you're not the first me or someone else here has said something similar to... or the tenth... or the twentieth... and 0 have come through with anything.

MRxSLAYx

Just a few things

1. High compression is not a problem, the tuning solutions are. The compression of the motor is fine for boost as long as you have a tuner that has the knowledge and skill, and most importantly, the ability to properly tune the motor.

2. Though the tuning solutions that allow use of all stock electronics are scarce, one can use 6 injectors and go full standalone.

3. Unless someone actually does the testing and pops one of these motors, we have no idea what the true tolerances are. It really does nothing to be solely hypothetical in an argument that requires actual data. For all we know the motor can blow at 10000whp...