SuperLex

Taken from the RX-7 site.



posted February 06, 2001 11:34 AM
For the love of God don't get any for a 3rd gen from http://www.torquemaster.com/ Cam at Pettit and I were trying to think of a way to get just a little more speed out of my car for the drags the next day (weren't happy with the times I was getting, turns out I just sucked and wasn’t launching hard enough, gained a full second about 8mph when I changed my driving), so we decided to toss in these plugs to "test them out." Well lets just say 2 months and 2,000 miles later, the tip of it broke, went through the engine, and took out half an apex seal and a turbo. Swapped out the plugs to the KING of rotary plugs.....NGKs!!!!, and drove the car another two weeks with a blown engine (dang thing still ran like a scalded dog). We checked the plugs in the other cars they were being tested in, and they were all cracking, but hadn’t broken yet, I was the lucky one, but I got a new engine out of it. It's a whole new beast now. ANYWAY, I guess I just rambled on when all I wanted to say was use the NGK's, they're hands down the best for the rotary.
rx7even


posted February 06, 2001 06:53 PM
I must say I am very interested in your post about the Torque Master plugs. Personally I have found the NGK plugs of pretty poor quality. I am doing tests on them along with HKS and the TQ plugs. I'm testing the TQ plugs now. I will have to pull them soon to take a look for cracks. So do you have any more info on your experience? Any pics or thoughts as to why they cracked? Did Torque Master pay for your new engine? Any more info you have would be great.
Me: cvs


posted February 06, 2001 09:35 PM
Well the torque master plugs look like they perform really good, and while in my car, it ran strong (not that it didn’t with NGK's). The plugs didn’t seem to help performance, but there sure weren't hurting it either. Anyway the plugs we put in where designed for a turbo rotary. I ran maybe 2 drag runs at the most on them, and the rest of the time they were in was just regular driving (not hard at all). One day driving down the road, engine just went boom. No warning no nothing. I was actually under slight boost (maybe 5psi) when it let out a big puff of smoke, followed by a lumpy idle, then it died. I figured it was possibly a vacuum line that came off, and was lowering the engine vacuum, causing it to stall. I drove it home and started taking everything apart to look for a loose hose. Figured since I was checking things, Id check and see how these new plugs were doing. Pulled one out, and surprise, there was only a little piece of the tip left, the rest.....through the engine. The other plug was cracked too, but hadn’t broken yet. I called Cam and told him, and the immediately checked the two other cars they were testing the plugs in, and sure enough, they were all cracking. All of them had less than 2,000 miles on them. We told the company, and they said they wanted the plug back so they could figure out what went wrong. Incase we had to sue them, we sent a picture of the plug to them instead. Haven’t heard from them sense, and that was many months ago. So basically they wont cover the engine, so Cam took the bill on the engine. I wouldn’t recommend them in any rotary, and if you have it in your car, get it out quick.

I forgot to add, they were awfully black, like they had been burned in the engine. My NGK's never looked like this. I'm guessing the higher heat from the rotary burned the plug, which weakened the tip, and it just soon broke.
rx7even


posted February 08, 2001 07:15 PM
Ok, I pulled the TQ plugs. First can you tell me exactly where the plugs cracked on you Rx7even? Was it the white ceramic like stuff around the electrode? When I looked at mine all but one was ok but it only takes one. The bad one had broken about 5mm below the electrode. It was only the white stuff and it didn't fall out because it didn't fit through the opening around the electrode. I will also say that other than that these plugs held up much much better than the NGK plugs have in my car. Much less carbon and the electrodes weren't all worn down like the NGKs. I am going to contact TQ to get a statement from them. Is it ok if I site what you have told me along with my experience? May I also ask if I can use what you have written on my web site? As I said I am doing tests on plugs so all of this information is of value to me. I hope that what I am doing will help others as well. I will be testing the HKS Iridium plugs next.
Me cvs


posted February 08, 2001 10:41 PM
It wasn’t the ceramic part, it was actually the dome around it that broke and went through the engine. There are 4 parts going up to form the dome, and all but one was gone. They all cracked where these four pieces come off the base and move to the tip of the plug.
Every plug we pulled out was cracked pretty good except mine and another, which broke instead. Cam is the one that’s handling any kind of lawsuit possibility, so as long as you take out all the parts about racing and trying to make my car faster, you can use it.
rx7even

==============================================================
Ok, here is the update. This is a copy of the e-mails between torque master and myself:

Torque Master,

I bought a set of your plugs for my 1993 Mazda Rx-7 on 7-26-200. (Invoice # xxx-xxx) I not only bought them because I was unhappy with my choices (mostly just NGKs are used for Rx-7s) but I was also conducting tests of the different plugs for my web site. (Silver Bullet Rx-7 http://tiger.towson.edu/~csaftn1/) The reason I am writing is two fold. First is that I have recently discovered that more than a few owners have had the Ground Electro-Ring crack. One owner reported that it cracked off destroying his engine after only 2000 miles. How do you respond to this? Are your plugs safe and if one does break will you cover the engine repair costs? Have you since discovered a flaw in the design and made any improvements? When I received this information I pulled my plugs to inspect them, which I was planning to do anyway. They had about 6000 miles and one autocross on them. This amount of mileage is normally what I get out of a set of NGKs. Your plugs did look much better than a set of NGKs. There was much less carbon buildup and the electrode wasn't all worn down. However one plug did have a broken off bit of ceramic that luckily did not enter the engine because it broke off about 4mm down the electrode and was thus too big to fit through the space between the electrode and Ground Electro-Ring. Again, all of the same questions. If you have updated the design I would like to claim your warranty and get all new plugs. If not I would still like to do so but only if I can get my money back. Although your plugs did resist wear and carbon while at the same time making more power I don't feel safe using them if they are prone to cracking in various places!!
Thank You for your time concerning this matter,
Charles Saftner
Silver Bullet Rx-7

----------------------------------
Dear Charles

No one guarantees spark plugs in race cars.

We won a championship with a Mazda RX7. This car had never placed better than 4th. After we took it over he never lost a race! The factory Mazda team never finished in the money in the entire series.

Now, let's get technical. On our Mazda, the firm that built the engine had the timing wheel mismarked. It was 5 degrees early. Our first tip to willow Springs resulted in the fastest laps he had ever turned, BUT, all four spark plugs had cracked ceramics. I put said wheel in my dividing head and marked it properly and then went to the races. We used the same set of spark plugs the entire season and went without a loss.

Now, what would you say to Champion or Autolite when their spark plugs bread up? -- and they do. I personally have won championships in outboard boat racing and open wheel racing on dirt and hard surface. I've come in from "hot lapping" with nothing but the center electrode on any plug -- caused by going lean. Not TM's, long before Torque Master.

Please send in your plugs for examination and give us a chance to examine
them.

Maurice Lindsay

------------------------------
Thank you for your reply,

Let me make sure I'm understanding what you are saying. Firstly is that the cracked ceramic was caused by excessive timing. Well I think I do have advanced timing but so do many Rx-7 owners. I have a remapped ecu that changes things like fuel. However I don't think my timing is too high. After all, the other plugs I have tested (NGK HKS) didn't have cracked ceramics. Second is the cracked/broken Ground Electro-Ring. You say this is caused by running lean? Well I can't speak from direct experience here but a rotary engine can not run lean like a piston engine can. A piston engine will knock and can survive. A rotary will ping and instantly blow an apex seal. So what I am saying is that if the problem was a lean condition I don't think the plug would be the first thing to fail. I would sooner think that the plug wasn't standing up to the higher heat levels in the engine or perhaps the Ground electro-Ring wasn't heating up and/or cooling down evenly due to the circular motion of the rotary. Maybe this caused stress between the four points at which the Ground Electro-Ring is connected. These are just guesses but in my mind are more plausible than a lean condition.
In response to not guaranteeing racecars let me just say that my car is not a racecar. It is a modified sports car used for occasional drivers seminars and autocrosses. However I can see your point of view on this so leave any warranty issues up to you.
Lastly let me just say I can appreciate your experiences with other plugs and your extensive racing background. There is no doubt in my mind that these plugs possess superior qualities however I do believe that my concerns are valid. I will send you two of the plugs from my car (one being the one with the cracked ceramic) along with a copy of our e-mails. When you look at them take note that the scratches on the Ground Electro-Ring and electrode were put there by me after they were removed from the car. I was just poking at them to test the depth of the carbon buildup Please write me back with any response you have to my response and again when you look at the plugs. Thanx,
Charles


Dear Charles

Thanks for the prompt reply.

I don't believe that I made a hard statement. I think that I quoted a personal experience and would have been remiss if I had not given this information to you. My intention was and is a desire to work with you.

So send those plugs back so that we can study the why of it.

Thanks much

Mauri


Well I might be eating some of my words here but I have been doing some digging. I spoke with one of the top guys in the Rx-7 world (Dave at KD) and he has seen a few of your plugs fail as well. Again it was the electrode ring however the car he was using as an example WAS running lean. So perhaps you do have a good point about that.... but he also has major concerns about using the plugs even in well tuned cars. He said it's a great idea but the materials being used aren't standing up to the high heat levels of a turbocharged rotary engine. Food for thought I guess. I think that if you could improve these plugs just a bit you could all but replace NGK as the major supplier of plugs for our cars!
Charles

Just a little more food for thought. The ceramics are made by the same people and the heat ranges are the same.

We have received your plugs -- have a set ready to go out and don't know what to do. Send or not??

Have a good day.

Mauri


I think that just about sums it all up. Torquemaster did not replace my plugs and hasn’t commented on the plugs I sent them. I’m not 100% sure what to make of these plugs so buy them at your own risk. Even if running lean does cause them to crack I don’t think they should. NGKs don’t crack when you run lean so these shouldn’t either. The plugs should not be the weakest link in the rotary engine.

GS400Lex

Thanks for the heads up SuperLex. I was thinking about getting these plugs for my GS but if they have a chance of blowing my engine... no thanks.

RacingAristo

SuperLex,

Thanks for the info. You should have posted before I placed the order with Steve.

SharpLS-96

I have been hearing stories of the TM plug tips breaking off as well so I am staying away from them.
Read this> http://tiger.towson.edu/~csaftn1/plugs.html

SuperLex

From that dudes website:
Update: I have discovered that "hispanic non certified welders" could also be the cause of this problem.



What does race have to do with the problem at hand?

SharpLS-96

Nothing at all, your completely right! I missed that part.

All I am saying is I am staying away from the plugs. I don't want to risk doing damage to my engine.

RON430

Reading the posts, the ground electrode is welded on. If the weld is done poorly, it could lead to problems. There are certified welders and non certified welders, hispanic and non hispanic (don't know what that has to do with it anyway but probably where TM gets their plugs from). Racing voids all warranties and your insurance for that matter. Most manufacturers will only warrant their liability to the extent of their revenue. TM supplied a new set of plugs which was probably the extent of their liability. Street engines just don't see the stresses that racing places on them. In particular is heat which has a greater ability to dissipate in a street application and generally causes more problems than any other single factor. Not trying to defend TM but I would be very hesitant to approve or condemn a plug due to its experience in a rotary, especially turbocharged and definitely raced, especially amateur. My experience comes from a lot of years ago but rotaries can build impressive temperatures and it is normally very mixture related. The comments about "reliability should revolve around the seals" gives you an indication. Like I said, this is from a lot of years ago but rotaries could be tuned to get good seal life but got pretty poor mileage because they had to run rich. If you tuned for performance, the seal life degraded sharply, primarily from heat generated by leaning. If you look at the pictures of the plugs that are used in the rotary, that should also tell you something about the uniqueness of that engine. Racing probably implies advanced timing and higher boost, both of which will dramatically increase combustion temperatures, and it is just that much worse in a rotary. Rotaries are remarkable engines, I have always been impressed by their smoothness and ability to wind up quickly, but they are definitely unique. Every major auto manufacturer evaluated rotaries in the late 60s and early 70s and you can see the results in the marketplace. If the problem with the TMs was from a manufacturing glitch, then it might be worth worrying about. If it is from their use in turboed rotaries, especially those that are amateur raced like in autocrosses, I don't think I would get too concerned.

fever

Time permitting, I will pull my Torquemasters that have more than one year and ten thousand miles in my GS400 this weekend. I'll report my findings ASAP.
To date, I have been nothing but pleased, Percy and me both.

Neo

iTrader: (3)

It seems that the people who drive their car in "normal" situation have not had problems. So unless people are planning to take their car to the track to race, it should be OK. (At least I sure hope so.)

fever,

An examination of your plugs would be very helpful.

Hermosa

They changed the plug design since then. Take a look at the ones they used versus the new ones. This shouldn't happen with the new ones. BTW did you see the date of that original incident?

Pearlpower

iTrader: (2)

The RX7 engine gets very very hot. I mean hot hot, which im sure contributes to the failure of the welded tips. Split Fires are also welded. Actually they are Autolite made plugs with the tips added on later.

Im happy with my Iridium plugs from NGK. I have many other issues to be worried about, plugs should not be one of them.

LexusRules

ya this is very concerning, and is most likely why the new plugs were released.. i orderd them already and will still install them.. reason for this is im getting rid of this engine in just over a year anyways...

for those of you with the old ones i would suggest stepping up to the new ones, or try the denso racing plugs, they look good just like the TM and i would have gotten them had i known about them.

I do not regret ordering TM plugs because i trust mean gene but we will see where this leads...

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

This thread is troubling. Granted a screaming turbo'd RX7 is a WHOLE lot different than my GS400, but do I risk putting plugs that can break in my Lexus? A car with a V8 that has an unbelievable track record of reliability? Is it worth it for a few HP or TQ?

One other thing I wonder about after going to TorqueMaster's web site. If they're so great, why do they have the cheesiest web site on the planet? It hasn't been updated in 4 years. The newest customer letter on their is 9 years old!

I think I'm out, guys.

BLiu

I bought these spark plugs in 1993 for my 1990 Acura Integra. Had them in my car until I sold it in 1996. I had no problems with the plugs.

BUT I have got to warn you. The shop is a Mom and Pop shop near my home because I actually picked them up personally and saw the facility - that's why the website kinda looks cheesy.

Hope this info helps.

Brent

GS400_PUSHER

I'm glad someone has shared their knowledge! Even know they found out the bad way!