ndk83

i posted this already but i thought id do it in here also

This is kinda directed to Lobuxracer, carchitect, gernby and all those with advanced automotive knowledge

I hage a the Middel East spec 2nd gen IS300 w a 3GR-FE engine and a compression ratio of 10.5:1.

I would really like to supercharge this engine but as of now no one makes a supercharger for it. And probably no one ever will. The toyota 3GR engine family have a few superchargers that coule work for us if we can modify superchargers. I know fitment will be an issue but lets start to see if we could hypothetically modify one fo the following supercharges to work on my IS:

TRD USA made one for the FJ Cruiser (1GR-FE engine 4.0l v6). Its a modified roots type Eaton E90 supercharger. FJ's have a compression ration of 10.0: 1 and make around 65hp (27% increase) and 68 more lbs/ft (25% increse) but thats including effects of intercooler and remapped ECU.


TRD Austrailia made one for the Aurion(2GR-FE engine, 3.5l v6) , they use the Eaton TVS supercharger. Aurion has a compression ratio of 10.8:1. This one makes around 50hp increase (18.5%) and a similar figure for torque.


Toyota Japan made a special edition supercharged Mark X (3GR_FSE engine called the 3GR-FXE because of the supercharger). MArk X has a compression ratio of 11.5:1They say its a TOMS supercharger, but i read that TOMS uses modified roots type Eaton supercharger(?). Not sure of the power numbers. This engine is a 3.0l v6 same as ours but theirs has both port and direct injection.

Toms makes a supercharger for the is350 (useless for anyone not living in japan) and hopefully will make one for our IS300. But its unlikely.

Moral of this story? The second gen IS300 with a 3gr-fe engine and a compression of 10.5:1 can easily cope with a supercharger

Anyone know of anyone that has modified a supercharge to fit a different but similar engine model than the one it was designed for?? can this be done theoretically? Im not too familiar with engines nor superchargers, but it seems possible,

ndk83

also can someone pls shed some light on the differences other than the direct injection between the 3gr-fe engine and the 3gr-fse. Are they essentially identical just withh differenet injectors? or is there other differences

nabbun

anything's possible with time, trials, lots of patience and money

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

^^That's about the truth of it. You've also got to be willing to be a guinea pig and hope nothing blows up when you do, or be prepared to deal with a blown engine if you tune it too tight.

ndk83

yea ive figred that part out andthats why im asking if anyone with any experience wtih superchargers have successfully installed s.c. on engines that either they werent designed for, or have been changed from their original spec such as boring out the cylinders. Im not gonna attempt to blow my car up unless ive seen/read someone whose successfully done modification to a supercharger to make it work, and more imoprtantly to know what those modifications are

For example, why wouldnt the S.C. of the 3l v6 GR-FSE be able to work properly on the 3l v6 GR-FE?? Same engine, same family, same displacement, only diff is the feul injection. From a first glance and a non techninal point of view it seems that it should work.

How engine specific are superchargers made? Do they calculate compression of that engine when making thecharger? im assuming they do, but wouldnt a car with a lower compression be able to handle the boost that the supercharger will give? Can anyone provide a good technical website on how S.C's are made and attached to an engine? ive seen a few website,

Gernby

iTrader: (1)

I don't really have any experience with FI applications, but I would expect the tuning to be the most difficult part.

Gaugster

I found a good website for technical info on how to size up a turbocharger. I know the obvious differences between a supercharger and a turbocharger but the basic approach would be similar. However this information is based under the assumption that the 'tuner' has complete control of the engine internals and ECU.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...ch_center.html

nabbun

hmmm basically you're looking to be the first supercharged IS300 in the world. no one has any tips to give you on your engine. All I would have to say is bring it to a tuner shop that has a good reputation with building toyota engines or with slapping on turbos/superchargers on cars (preferably toyotas lol) oh if anything, give rod millen a call. good luck

carchitect

iTrader: (1)

What I've come to understanding on this suject based on previous vehicles is that there is one standalone management that could work to your benefit. It will require some significant work to make it work and tune it to work but it is doable.

Most standalone managements are complete replacements to the OEM ecu. The OEM ecu as we all know is rather complex and tuning it not an easy task for anyone. It is a flash programmable ecu but Toyota loves to make everything as complex in this department to make it difficult for guys like you or me from changing anything on it.

The Greddy e-manage ultimate has been something I've been messing with for quite a while. It is designed to use the OEM ecu as the primary ecu. It takes over the injectors and timing (if needed) and can simulate or emulate the MAF signal to convert the system to an immitation speed density system.

Since these GR engines are somewhat complex in their communications (CAN network) to the other systems in conjunction to the OEM controls for the 4 cam VVT-i and other input and outputs, It would be best to leave as much intact as possible.

In most vehicle's (believe it or not) the OEM ecu starts to relax on the emissions monitoring when driven full throttle (or over 75% throttle). It seems to only look at the delay in the rise of the secondary O2 sensor. This basically lets the ecu determine the efficiency of the catalyst and its O2 centent. It also monitors it during decel (0% throttle). It looks for delay in the fall of the secondary O2 sensor. If your market has A/F sensors the ecu monitors them for their performance but it may not be concerned about their A/F feedback to see if they are running lean or rich.

The Greddy EMU can use the trigger from the ecu's injector commands and you can create a fuel table to inject more fuel with additional injectors. Since the static compression is already high installing any thing to pressurize the intake will increase the inlet temperature and will be a receipe for detonation related carnage. So I would run methanol on these injectors and super cool the intake charge while supplying more fuel simultaneously. The Greddy EMU can use a wideband feedback to create a closed loop and can be programmed to stop working this when part throttle or cruising so when the OEM ecu is completing its monitoring and you're out of the boost section of the map it will be happy and content.

There are other issues that could prevent you from using the Greddy EMU. The cams triggers are 4 sensors that operate on hall effect output. Each f these triggers are approx. 120 out of each other (but not exactly). But the crank is a 36-minus 2 mag reference and when the TDC B1 cam 1 (intake right side) likes up with the 2 missing teeth on the crank the OEM ecu knows its cylinder#1. there after the crank is the reference and the 4 cam triggers are used for VVT-i control via OCV closed loop feedback of these cam triggers. The Greddy EMU doesn't have a listing for a combination of hall and mag reference so the cam output may need to be converted back to mag reference as the Greddy EMU needs it while still maintaining the hall input to the OEM ecu.

The Greddy V-manage can also send a VVT-i control to the intake and exhaust but only on 1 bank. I'm not sure it has the capability of using two V-manage units to control both cams on both banks. This may not be of much concern unless you are willing to tune the engine to its 100% peak performance.

Now this is just the wiring and fuel control side. The fab work associated with the artificial aspiration will indeed be a little overwhelming. If you're serious about it and are willing to take on a project of this nature, I would devise a plan before I attempt to go any further.

Best of luck.

Gaugster

Direct Injection has some crazy potential to add power to these cars. The link below will blow you mind!!!

www.ethanolboost.com

In theory (insert your favorite joke HERE), You could convert the Direct Injection system to run on E85. Then you use the regular port injectors (IS350) to function as the main fuel injectors for regular gas. Then by Direct Injecting E85, you could greatly increase the engines resistance to knock. Then high boost is all but a formality.

I left out a lot of the details so feel free to flame as you wish.

I need to talk to the experts but now I am considered a N2O kit that uses E85 (85% Ethanol, 15% Gas available in the Mid-West) in a separate fuel system. This should help prevent knock. Ethanol, like Methanol, is an alcohol fuel so I would not want to inject it way up in the throttle body. Injecting it as close to the intake valves as possible seem to be the most realistic option without revamping the entire fuel system

Enjoy

lobuxracer

iTrader: (2)

^^none of this is a mystery to anyone who has been turbocharging anything in the last 10 years. Water/alcohol/meth injection is poor man's race gas. But the projections they're showing for refilling the alcohol are based on average drivers. Many here would kill that little container in a week.

Gaugster

I won't disagree that that alcohol has been used for a long time. It was one of the first fuels used for an internal combustion engine. The point from the report is the combination of DI using alcohol has an extreme cooling effect. This, in theory, goes way beyond the typical meth injection etc... That's the new stuff. My guess is that the reports show PSI as absolute pressure which tends to be more impressive at first glance.

E85 is pretty easy to find from my local so I find it very interesting

carchitect

iTrader: (1)

E85 is garbage. It is a blend of Corny alcohol and waste byproducts of the distillation of crude oil (liquified plastics). It is supposed to be 70% minimum ethanol and in theory it is supposed to be 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. E85 is supposed to go into flex-fuel vehicles. It isn't designed for a high performance engine. Every vehicle that is a flex-fuel vehicle has a terrible VE and low RPM redline and so it works fine. If you were to tune for E85 today, the tune could potentially vary by upto 20% during the next fillup.

E85 was a loop hole for the domestic manufacturers to gain CAFE standards since they only measure MPG of gasoline and that is 15% of E85 that is measured. So a 1/2 ton Silverado gave tham 91 MPG!!

IMO, methanol is a lot better alcohol. Meth has atleast 20 higher BTU consumption compared to ethanol when vaporized. Its specific output is also greater and it is more consistent. Meth costs more than E85 but is the same as E100.

Either ways, you can't use it for direct injection. E100 or M100 would require a lot larger fuel injectors. Gasoline is not conductive but alcohol is and so it may not be uasble in the direct injectors or possibly even the port injectors. I think the only way to make it work would be a new cast/fabbed intake plenum in place of the OEM thermoplastic plenum and a couple of injectors in the intake track right after the throttle body. This way you could still keep the OEM fuel system intact and have it work as designed. Additional fuel could be then administered from the additional fuel injector(s).

thisisj0

what is VE?

ndk83

very interesting read, thanks for taking the time, ill be lookin into the greddy emu and ill be discussing this with a toyota technitian as (not gonna lie to you) although i got the jist of what you said, alot of the details are beyond my area of knowledge. This project may be way over my head but im not gonna give up. I definatly wont start doing anything until i have a complete plan in place. Ill be running it by you guys for discussion and brainstorming ideas. Now that there may exist a possible EMU (still lookin for others) the project seems more doable than before. still a crap load of work to do. thanks again