gerrb

iTrader: (34)

There should be no pressure problem with the right pumps or check valves and good fuel regulator.

It is an idea roaming around that once a car is +1000rwhp its driveability or reliability suffers. That is baloney ! It all depends on how it was built ... parts used and who built it and most important who tuned it. With good technology and aftermarket ECUs nowadays , a high HP car can have good drivability on the city . Go to Supraforums , you will hear people like Ken Henderson having +1000rwhp supras and drive them in the California traffics day in day out. Reliability and Drivability suffers when people do not use the right parts or they cheap out to save and do not get the right people to work on their car and yet wanted a high hp car.

Again as I tell every one who asks my opinion... What is the purpose of the car ? Build it based on that purpose and stick to it. Otherwise you buy and then sell and buy again.. waste of time and money. Do it right and once based on the purpose of the car.

Now you are saying that you will only go as far as your R154 / clutch can handle right now .. then -8an feed and -6an split will do.

BUT based on my rationale .. price of lines and fittings of -10an and split -8an split is not much different on that website , why not go to the bigger ones so if ever I win the lotto and go higher hp and V160 it is already ready ? Just my personal preference that doesn't mean is right .

Studiogeek

iTrader: (6)

I am in for all logical improvements. I will go with the more capable setup. I ordered two 450 Walboro pumps. Should I start with just one or put them both in? What rail should I buy?
Sorry for all the questions but I just don't trust myself to figure this out. Is there a thread with a great setup I can follow and be less of a pain, LOL?

gerrb

iTrader: (34)

if you are trying to hit 650rwhp on E85, you will need to install both pumps.

Fuel rail will depend on the injectors you have .. 11mm or 14mm sized injectors on feed hole... split -8an fuel rail feed will be good if you have -10an main line .. otherwise split -6an fuel rail feed if you have -8an main line.

pretty sure there might be threads around but I don't remember exactly where now..lol.

Studiogeek

iTrader: (6)

I have these installed: Deatschwerks 1000cc 2jzge 22S-03-1000-6

I will get the larger lines and install both pumps.

Looks like I just need the rail and lines. I received the gauges and pumps today. :thumb:

Thanks Everyone!

lexforlife

iTrader: (7)

Just be sure and stage those pumps and run a min dedicated -6an return or you're going to super heat the fuel going back to tank and skew a/f numbers especially for a car in stop and go. Personally would use only 1 as 1 is more then sufficient on e upto 700 rwhp and very safe at 650ish which is about all your 1000cc will provide at a safe duty cycle ..i also believe in over building fuel but their comes a point that overbuilding can create other bigger problems. Build your fuel system ready to accept 2 but use 1 if you read on walbro 455lph pumps you'll see what they say is min hp rating for just 1 imagine 2.

Heres a good read from firsthand experience

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...ght=walbro+e85

On trufantics car I eventually had the fuel superheating issues and saw base pressure dropping after 30 min or so of driving , some of it caused by vapor lock ,some because of cavitation .. bottom line is 2 move a immense amount of fuel which you do not need nor want in street duty car sup 750rwhp

Here's another read that I was involved in (please read all pages of thread)

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...no-679whp-E-85

Studiogeek

iTrader: (6)

Lexforlife,
Thank you so much for the links and information. Now I am on the fence. Keeping my 154 healthy is a hard limit for the most part so that leans me back towards the smaller, simpler but upgradable setup. This car sits in stop and go traffic more than anything else. Drivability down low is paramount.
So you suggest just using a single pump with -8 main line and -6 dual capable but single feed? (I know I said that wrong) but ready for dual later on?

Sorry for needing 2nd grade clarification but fuel scares me.

Thanks guys!

lexforlife

iTrader: (7)

No worries bro , it took me alot of trial and error , talking with a alot of top class tuners and builders we have here in Florida (alpha -induction , titan , big daddy performance , crispeed -tuner , south Florida turbo , real street -jay , tps -Errol , Jordon -aka turbo Jew megasquirt master tuner etc etc )

Personally I like dual feeding a rail .. so you must at minimum run 1 line size larger to be able to split .-8 an is much easier to work with and bend vs -10an without radius bending issues .. then mount your stainless steel filter just under car about where your drivers seat is then run a high quality y block split into -6an feeding each side of rail and down the road you can always add another walbro into tank y into -8 intank.. I highly doubt you'll need 2of these.

Another option is walbro does make another e85 pump which many people were not aware of
http://www.lethalperformance.com/sho...ompatible.html

Which for goals of sub 800 are perfect when using id 1300 injectors ..at 305lph you can install both now and stage 1 or run both full time and not super heat fuel, then you can run 2 dedicated-6an lines from tank

Just some ideas

Studiogeek

iTrader: (6)

Wow, I will continue to try and understand fuel but I must admit, I am way out over my skis. I am going to take the parts to my race shop minus the lines and see what setup he is willing to guarantee and stand behind for safety and drivability. Whatever that is, I will go with.
I feel way behind on understanding fuel. In my year of reading, I ignorantly skipped over learning about it.

Is it worth it to replace the rail for me or will I be OK with the stock rail?

I have thought about this quite a bit. I REALLY have to resist the urge to "power climb" any further than my R154/single disk/Torsen can take. This is where I should stop based on where my money needs to go right now. This is an executive decision unless i somehow get rich.
If an R154 gets shaky at 650, I want 640. I want to make it more and more reliable and solid over the years. I cannot spend any more to make it faster this year or next. I will buy a rail and lines if that is what i need to do this right. I will then have the current tuner finish what I paid for because it is open and feels great. I may also let Alpha tune it and just have the other tune as a backup if i want one to tweak. Would Alpha just lock his file, or is there a way to lock the ECU so you can't upload a different tune for the day?

I need to set a hard limit right now. Gerrb is correct. It is an addiction for sure. My wife is an accountant, we will file jointly for the first time. The cat is out of the bag...

I will offer the shop both pumps, the Weldon the gauges and tell them my power limit (R154 limit). I will see what he thinks I need to build with that limit in mind.

Any suggestions from you two with the new hard limit in mind would be greatly appreciated.

I am printing everything both of you said for the shop to read.

I treat my R154 extremely gently. I have never done a burnout, banged gears or dropped the clutch hard. For an old geezer, gently aggressive driver. What is the smart cutoff for a healthy but not upgraded late model, Soarer R154? 650hp or so? 700hp super gently driven?

Where ever the logical line is for a gently driven R154/Single disk/Torsen is my new line.

The main thing was to address the AEM shutting down. I seriously hope this was the issue. As far as I know, there was no HARD evidence the V2 was shutting down because of fuel

I really appreciate you guys help and suggestions!!!

Seriously!

HiPSI

iTrader: (2)

If the shut down was a result of fuel going lean the data logs would of showed that. Even then it wouldn't cause the whole system to shut down like you are explaining.

I would look at your ignition coil settings / coil dwell time maybe he's over heating them. Something electrical is causing the issue, not fuel. What coils are you using currently? VVTi? GTE?



During your logs is it going lean or becoming uncontrollable tune wise?

Here is an interesting quote for Kurt on the supraforums regarding tuning the AEM V2 on VVTi coils.

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...-time-setting&

I chased my tail with AEM, it wasn't enjoyable. Do not just throw parts at the car hoping for the best you will end up wasting money. While I agree the stock fuel lines and rail become a restriction to a point, it has been proven that 550whp is attainable on the stock fuel system MKIV Supra TT by Hellbringer on supraforums. The only restriction I would replace is the banjo bolt on the inlet side of the fuel rail, and bypass the fuel dampener with a -6AN line. The stock rail can be tapped for a -6AN fitting. As well as tapped for a fitting on the regulator side. Add a fitting and mount a AFPR near there and plumb a -6AN line to it, return to the stock return hose.

Thread for reference:
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...ce-for-550-whp

His original 550whp stock fuel thread:
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...tem&highlight=

He also went 11.0 @ 130mph on stock fuel system and slicks and a race gas 100oct tank mixture:
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...MPH&highlight=

Just giving you some advice, as I went through this whole bit before and ended up waiting to I absolutely needed to upgrade the fuel.

Studiogeek

iTrader: (6)

Once i asked about the car not specifically leaning out on my logs, there was no answer but i had already purchased the stuff already.
I think you are right HIPSI. It has to be something else like the coils. My coils are VVTI coils and it is a bizarre HARD FULL shutdown.
-------------------------
I asked the tuner and he said: "if the igniter is shutting down because it's getting too hot, why does the car start right up immediately?
Wouldn't we have to wait till the thermal circuit brings the igniter back online? This thing will boost and blow and boost and blow forever as proved on the dyno the other day. It was consistent like clockwork.
We have no way of knowing that fuel pressure is in the lines as the ECU is showing us it's pulsing the injectors. It has to be spark or fuel. The gauge will definitely tell us what it is by way of deductive reasoning.
On the Dyno we will be able to simulate the shut down check for voltage at the injector and coils to pinpoint what system or systems shutting down."
--------------------------
He shares your sentiments of slowing down my purchases. He reminded me today that he only suggested an FPR and gauge. I went all E85 crazy on my own.

HiPSI

iTrader: (2)

I would reach out to "Kurt" on the supraforums, he has helped me in the past. He's been a 2JZ enthusiast for awhile and has NA-T AEM setups before. I would post a help post under the NA section just copy and paste your issue here, it might result in more guidance with people that tune AEM.

Hopefully your tuner will approach the issue with you and actively search for the answer vs just blaming the setup. Was the AEM box purchased new, under warranty? Shouldn't there be some tech support help through them? I know you said a call was made and they just said "start over", but that to me is unacceptable. One of the reasons I hated AEM was their lack of support. Sound Performance in IL, Induction Performance in FL, and FSR in CA are the two names that come to mind for reliable 2JZ help and tuning.

E85 is amazing if you have it available. It does require more fuel flow / pressure to make the same power but once your fuel system is setup for it then you can safely turn the boost up. If I had E85 available I would of spent the money in fuel upgrades. I held off due to 93 octane being my limiting factor, and the potential issues with the stock GTE ecu controlling E85.

Studiogeek

iTrader: (6)

HIPSI,
I will dig around SF and post an inquiry. Great idea.
My box was purchased used but from a client at reasonably popular shop. They likely wouldn't take the rep damage chance for a buddy with a beat V2. They tuned his car with it (but never know).
I could tell my tuner's tech ego was a bit damaged at first as he tends to be the guy who people bring things like this to, rather than the guy who had an issue "removed from his hands". He did sort of "blame the car" before exhausting all possibilities.
After a day to work that out, he has the attitude we need to get this done (i believe).
It is just inconvenient to get my car to him, leave it and get home then reverse the process. Maybe we will get it back to him this week. I prefer to figure this out (online, LOL) first rather than run back and forth to Queens every time we get a hunch. The simpler theories can be tested by me perhaps.
----------------------------
A builder on Facebook thinks the box is not for NA/T and needs a resistor mod. He said:
"This box is setup to run cam and crank angle sensor. The distributor resistance values needed for this NA-T setup are not supported by the 6100 box. If your tuner is good enough he can change the cam and crank angle resistors in the box to those of the 6101 box or change the voltage threshold settings for cam and crank. There is a difference in the bias resistors on the cam/crank/distributor inputs. You need either more or less resistance, I just can't remember which way it goes.

Without the correct amount of bias resistance, the signal can be too filtered and the aem not read the signals as steady and consistently as it needs to, or it could be noisy meaning more can and crank errors.
The box will work. But they made a box for cars with distributors and one with out. Cam and crank angle sensors needed a certain amount of sensitivity and filtration. The ones for the TT box (the one you have) work well with with TT sensors vs the 6101 box is made to work with the distributor you currently have. This could be easily fixed by changing resistors for cam and crank sensors in the box.
It can cause the car to shut down as well. Interpreted as a timing error. The data logs would of shown this... It would have been painfully obvious..."
------------------------------

This is going to be fun when I get by this. The taste of the next level of power was delicious.

Ali SC3

iTrader: (10)

I hope I am remembering this right but what I understood is that one of the main differences between a GE harness and a GTE harness power wise is that the GTE harness cars have 2x12v switched relays to power injectors and coils.

The GE didn't have individual coilpacks so they are all run off of one 12v switched relay. It is possible to overdraw what the relay can handle but I would think you would be melting relay unless it has some kind of protection where it just shuts off, and when you restart it it doesn't have that load and starts right back up.

what you could do is run another 12V switched relay just for the coilpacks. I have never had to do this and I have hit 20 psi on vvti coils but it is possible you have some sort of electrical gremlin hiding out somewhere or maybe something is up with the actual AEM box (it happens from time to time, that is why AEM has a repair service). anyways just throwing that out there since it seems like an electrical issue and there was coil talk. It was something I noticed when I was doing my coilpacks mod stuff but it never turned out to be an issue for me or anyone else that I know of or read before. I still find it hard to believe this is the issue at 16 psi though most people are running that on na-t's and I have never heard of it being an issue.

good luck hope you get to the bottom of it.

oh and the crank sensor thing is likely a load of croc. people use tt boxes on na-t all the time. if that was the case you would be getting "timing errors" accumulating in the parameter window and alot of backfiring, the aem would not shut down injectors/ignition completely it would try and "fire" through it as long as it was getting some kind of signal however dangerous that might sound (why all the sensors need to be setup well in the first place). Also the cam and crank sensors have nothing to do with how much power you are making... they are purely rpm based (bias voltage raises with rpm)... so basically what I am saying is if you can get to 7000 rpm at all under any condition then your cam and crank sensors are working just fine. dont let anyone mod your tt box it will become worthless if you are convinced to listen to their nonsense then at the least sell that box and grab an 6101 box, and then you will also eliminate the chance of that box having been "bad" and you will still have an aem box worth what it should be worth. the second you mod it no one wants it (your wifes an accountant dont add on to the costs lol). Also, there are more parameters for adjusting the cam and crank sensors on the v2 than the v1, so if it was really the case you could tweak some parameters (if the person knows what they are really doing).

you will likely get every kind of explanation when its above a tuners head, after all his job is to tune, not to setup the car properly, so you will have to filter out what is a possibility and what isn't and find a reasonable way to go forward. modding your 1500+ box on a hunch is a seriously bad idea man, just looking out. you could try a 7m cps if that was really the case but you will still have the same issue unfortunately that "builders" logic is terribly flawed cause they are rpm based devices and have nothing to do with the amount of "psi". now if you said you could never get over X amount of rpm's... it would 150% be your crank sensor signal.
also you said the aem is showing rpm as the car shuts down... I will let you guess where it gets the rpm signal from =)

the only other thing I can think of ignition related is you need to ignitor "filter" installed to filter out the coil "noise" or else it will drown out the crank sensor signal via the ground of the chassis. its a little white/yellow plug where the stock coil was, leave it plugged in even though you have removed the stock coil. if that is removed it could be part of the issue but as I said it would cause timing errors and the engine to drop in speed, so check and see what the timing errors parameter is reading out, any good tuner should be looking at that when there are issues... a 0 under timing errors tells you to look somewhere other than the crank sensor, a bunch of timing errors when it shuts off tells you to look at the crank sensor.

last note: aem has a service where you can send in the ecu, if they find anything wrong with it you can take it up with the person who sold it to you (possibly), and if they find nothing wrong with it then you know thats not an issue. 16 psi is pretty low for stuff like that to happen also that is most peoples low boost setting on the aem.

If the aem is still having power and its just the coils and injectors shutting off... then its possible to log all the parameters as it happens, and with that in front of a competent person, they could give you a real good idea where the problem is... but that just my .02c. from what I can tell I agree with the others it sounds like a power or ecu issue or maybe the relay itself is having some issues.

Welcome to the world of standalones, but there is light at the end of the tunnel, getting it setup is the hardest part. once you knock out the issues there are it should be good

Studiogeek

iTrader: (6)

Ali,
I was hoping to get your opinion on this! Thank You! I am printing all of your suggestions of things to try.

Studiogeek

iTrader: (6)

Could a fresh coil setup and upgraded power source to them help? I just ordered 1ZZ coils:

Also Ali, I am still using the plugs you suggested for the TT ECU Mod. Are they still the best choice?

I have a fuel upgrade ready to go in as well. Fuel and spark upgrade!

Thanks