W58 noise?
02-07-16, 08:22 PM
#1
Pit Crew
Thread Starter
W58 noise?
So got my w58 in my sc400 a week ago and so far has been a ton of fun! From what I have read w58s are supposed to be noisy transmissions. So I am wondering if this is normal:
I get some minor noise in all gears, but 5th is the loudest. Only makes the noise under acceleration, silent when i let off gas. I also still have the shift hole open and the center console completely out. Thanks for any help, here's the video:
I get some minor noise in all gears, but 5th is the loudest. Only makes the noise under acceleration, silent when i let off gas. I also still have the shift hole open and the center console completely out. Thanks for any help, here's the video:
02-07-16, 11:25 PM
#2
W58's aren't exactly quiet transmissions but they aren't obnoxious. It's more like very mild gear whine during some conditions or when they are cold. Beyond that, there will always be a bit of internal noise but not accompanied by any abnormal vibrations or grinding. Redline MT-90 helps their longevity and quiet them.
From your video, however, that doesn't sound completely normal... but it's hard to tell. Am I mostly hearing the noise of your V8? I can't tell clearly but IF there is grinding then it's not normal. However, hearing some "swiffffffffffff" or "schfffffffffffff" noises from the gears with the console and factory rubber shift boots (I'm not referring to the leather console shift boot) out is more or less normal.
I'm in for second opinions here. Or possibly a second video during the daytime so that we can see your shifting match up with what we hear from the car. Do you get this noise during normal driving (ie: not flat out?)
And... I'm glad to see you got it in and running!
From your video, however, that doesn't sound completely normal... but it's hard to tell. Am I mostly hearing the noise of your V8? I can't tell clearly but IF there is grinding then it's not normal. However, hearing some "swiffffffffffff" or "schfffffffffffff" noises from the gears with the console and factory rubber shift boots (I'm not referring to the leather console shift boot) out is more or less normal.
I'm in for second opinions here. Or possibly a second video during the daytime so that we can see your shifting match up with what we hear from the car. Do you get this noise during normal driving (ie: not flat out?)
And... I'm glad to see you got it in and running!
Last edited by KahnBB6; 02-07-16 at 11:29 PM.
02-08-16, 05:20 AM
#3
Pit Crew
Thread Starter
W58's aren't exactly quiet transmissions but they aren't obnoxious. It's more like very mild gear whine during some conditions or when they are cold. Beyond that, there will always be a bit of internal noise but not accompanied by any abnormal vibrations or grinding. Redline MT-90 helps their longevity and quiet them.
From your video, however, that doesn't sound completely normal... but it's hard to tell. Am I mostly hearing the noise of your V8? I can't tell clearly but IF there is grinding then it's not normal. However, hearing some "swiffffffffffff" or "schfffffffffffff" noises from the gears with the console and factory rubber shift boots (I'm not referring to the leather console shift boot) out is more or less normal.
I'm in for second opinions here. Or possibly a second video during the daytime so that we can see your shifting match up with what we hear from the car. Do you get this noise during normal driving (ie: not flat out?)
And... I'm glad to see you got it in and running!
From your video, however, that doesn't sound completely normal... but it's hard to tell. Am I mostly hearing the noise of your V8? I can't tell clearly but IF there is grinding then it's not normal. However, hearing some "swiffffffffffff" or "schfffffffffffff" noises from the gears with the console and factory rubber shift boots (I'm not referring to the leather console shift boot) out is more or less normal.
I'm in for second opinions here. Or possibly a second video during the daytime so that we can see your shifting match up with what we hear from the car. Do you get this noise during normal driving (ie: not flat out?)
And... I'm glad to see you got it in and running!
Of note, my car is using a poly trans mount, and also has solid rear diff bushings
02-08-16, 03:01 PM
#4
I don't know how much additional vibration the poly transmission mount would add, if any. The solid differential bushings might but I'm not sure that could even be related in general. There are a couple of vendors that sell poly diff mounts now from Aliga to Figs Engineering.
Do you have a completely stock exhaust system or a custom/aftermarket exhaust system on your 1UZ? I'm thinking that is perhaps the majority of what I'm hearing, filtered through the particular microphone on your cellphone or audio recorder-- sound recording fidelity often isn't the best with most cellphones.
The finer "swfffff" sound is familiar to me. So long as there is NO grinding, that should be the sound of your gears working. I heard a bit of that with my W58 with the cosmetic shift boot removed and a bit with everything on but it was all mild. You will hear some more sound without the factory internal console muffling boots. The only way to change that aspect is to obtain a 1992-1994 SC300 W58 shift housing extension and internal arm, swap in a 1992-1994 SC300 M/T transmission console (you would follow the comprehensive procedure in 97-SC300's V160 swap thread for this) and finally obtaining the 92-94 SC300 internal console rubber shift boots. Then you'd have near OEM sound muffling as intended by Toyota/Lexus.
Tedious and really up to you if you think it's worth it to do all of that. I'd focus on getting the correct SC300 W58 extension housing setup. Or down the road just find a true SC300/MKIV W58 with no changes required (92-94 SC300 M/T trans tunnel and muffling being a separate consideration).
Again, if you haven't already I highly recommend running only Redline MT-90 transmission oil. You do not want the kind with any friction modifier. Just regular MT-90.
Do you notice any abnormal or troubling transmission behavior in terms of feel, however?
Do you have a completely stock exhaust system or a custom/aftermarket exhaust system on your 1UZ? I'm thinking that is perhaps the majority of what I'm hearing, filtered through the particular microphone on your cellphone or audio recorder-- sound recording fidelity often isn't the best with most cellphones.
The finer "swfffff" sound is familiar to me. So long as there is NO grinding, that should be the sound of your gears working. I heard a bit of that with my W58 with the cosmetic shift boot removed and a bit with everything on but it was all mild. You will hear some more sound without the factory internal console muffling boots. The only way to change that aspect is to obtain a 1992-1994 SC300 W58 shift housing extension and internal arm, swap in a 1992-1994 SC300 M/T transmission console (you would follow the comprehensive procedure in 97-SC300's V160 swap thread for this) and finally obtaining the 92-94 SC300 internal console rubber shift boots. Then you'd have near OEM sound muffling as intended by Toyota/Lexus.
Tedious and really up to you if you think it's worth it to do all of that. I'd focus on getting the correct SC300 W58 extension housing setup. Or down the road just find a true SC300/MKIV W58 with no changes required (92-94 SC300 M/T trans tunnel and muffling being a separate consideration).
Again, if you haven't already I highly recommend running only Redline MT-90 transmission oil. You do not want the kind with any friction modifier. Just regular MT-90.
Do you notice any abnormal or troubling transmission behavior in terms of feel, however?
02-08-16, 06:10 PM
#5
Pit Crew
Thread Starter
I don't know how much additional vibration the poly transmission mount would add, if any. The solid differential bushings might but I'm not sure that could even be related in general. There are a couple of vendors that sell poly diff mounts now from Aliga to Figs Engineering.
Do you have a completely stock exhaust system or a custom/aftermarket exhaust system on your 1UZ? I'm thinking that is perhaps the majority of what I'm hearing, filtered through the particular microphone on your cellphone or audio recorder-- sound recording fidelity often isn't the best with most cellphones.
The finer "swfffff" sound is familiar to me. So long as there is NO grinding, that should be the sound of your gears working. I heard a bit of that with my W58 with the cosmetic shift boot removed and a bit with everything on but it was all mild. You will hear some more sound without the factory internal console muffling boots. The only way to change that aspect is to obtain a 1992-1994 SC300 W58 shift housing extension and internal arm, swap in a 1992-1994 SC300 M/T transmission console (you would follow the comprehensive procedure in 97-SC300's V160 swap thread for this) and finally obtaining the 92-94 SC300 internal console rubber shift boots. Then you'd have near OEM sound muffling as intended by Toyota/Lexus.
Tedious and really up to you if you think it's worth it to do all of that. I'd focus on getting the correct SC300 W58 extension housing setup. Or down the road just find a true SC300/MKIV W58 with no changes required (92-94 SC300 M/T trans tunnel and muffling being a separate consideration).
Again, if you haven't already I highly recommend running only Redline MT-90 transmission oil. You do not want the kind with any friction modifier. Just regular MT-90.
Do you notice any abnormal or troubling transmission behavior in terms of feel, however?
Do you have a completely stock exhaust system or a custom/aftermarket exhaust system on your 1UZ? I'm thinking that is perhaps the majority of what I'm hearing, filtered through the particular microphone on your cellphone or audio recorder-- sound recording fidelity often isn't the best with most cellphones.
The finer "swfffff" sound is familiar to me. So long as there is NO grinding, that should be the sound of your gears working. I heard a bit of that with my W58 with the cosmetic shift boot removed and a bit with everything on but it was all mild. You will hear some more sound without the factory internal console muffling boots. The only way to change that aspect is to obtain a 1992-1994 SC300 W58 shift housing extension and internal arm, swap in a 1992-1994 SC300 M/T transmission console (you would follow the comprehensive procedure in 97-SC300's V160 swap thread for this) and finally obtaining the 92-94 SC300 internal console rubber shift boots. Then you'd have near OEM sound muffling as intended by Toyota/Lexus.
Tedious and really up to you if you think it's worth it to do all of that. I'd focus on getting the correct SC300 W58 extension housing setup. Or down the road just find a true SC300/MKIV W58 with no changes required (92-94 SC300 M/T trans tunnel and muffling being a separate consideration).
Again, if you haven't already I highly recommend running only Redline MT-90 transmission oil. You do not want the kind with any friction modifier. Just regular MT-90.
Do you notice any abnormal or troubling transmission behavior in terms of feel, however?
Feels fine from what I can tell, goes into all gears fine. I changed out the gl4 I had in previously for mt90 two days ago.
I wouldn't call the noise grinding, just a whine of sorts.
02-08-16, 09:44 PM
#7
Pit Crew
Thread Starter
Also planning on getting new motor mounts
Last edited by tenac2215; 02-08-16 at 09:48 PM.
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02-25-16, 06:26 PM
#9
Pit Crew
Thread Starter
Got the shifter in Monday, feels real nice and should fit the console with minor modification ( cutting out crossover peice on console trim) haven't had a chance to put it together though.
Am getting a bit worried about noise though. Seems to be getting louder, and rest of gears or making some noises. I will try to post a better video.
Am getting a bit worried about noise though. Seems to be getting louder, and rest of gears or making some noises. I will try to post a better video.
Last edited by tenac2215; 02-25-16 at 07:14 PM.
02-26-16, 11:22 PM
#12
tenac... I'm kind of stumped. The only thing I can think of that it sounds like is that your driveshaft may be hitting the output collar due to a clearance issue.
At first I thought it was just open exhaust noise... then I realized it sounded more like specific gears were grinding... but then when I listened to you coast down with your foot off the throttle it sounded more like the driveshaft hitting something.
I could be wrong but if that noise were actually the inside of your transmission you probably wouldn't have gears for very long.
I had a brief issue when I did my MKIII R154 swap whereby the MKIII front driveshaft I used would hit the output collar. My solution was to have that collar removed at a shop. They can be replaced-- and I probably SHOULD get another one to have set aside to replace later if I can be assured that I won't have a clearance issue again. I may have to source a Soarer driveshaft to do that-- doesn't apply to your swap since you already have an SC W58 front driveshaft.
However the principle of it might be what's happening with your W58 swap.
Jack up the car safely and take a look at that output collar and see if you can identify any scoring or obvious metal on metal damage.
Once I removed that collar I still had a very minor contact issue but it was perhaps 1mm of contact and went away, perhaps after grinding off that 1mm of metal from the back of the transmission. The noise at that time was just a little high pitched squealing. I've never had a single recurrence in the last three years and I've never had any issues replacing a real seal. It may also have been my carrier bearing swap seating in.
I found that the noise occurred only upon coasting or deceleration. Not during acceleration.
I hope my theory is correct. Anyone else want to offer their opinion?
At first I thought it was just open exhaust noise... then I realized it sounded more like specific gears were grinding... but then when I listened to you coast down with your foot off the throttle it sounded more like the driveshaft hitting something.
I could be wrong but if that noise were actually the inside of your transmission you probably wouldn't have gears for very long.
I had a brief issue when I did my MKIII R154 swap whereby the MKIII front driveshaft I used would hit the output collar. My solution was to have that collar removed at a shop. They can be replaced-- and I probably SHOULD get another one to have set aside to replace later if I can be assured that I won't have a clearance issue again. I may have to source a Soarer driveshaft to do that-- doesn't apply to your swap since you already have an SC W58 front driveshaft.
However the principle of it might be what's happening with your W58 swap.
Jack up the car safely and take a look at that output collar and see if you can identify any scoring or obvious metal on metal damage.
Once I removed that collar I still had a very minor contact issue but it was perhaps 1mm of contact and went away, perhaps after grinding off that 1mm of metal from the back of the transmission. The noise at that time was just a little high pitched squealing. I've never had a single recurrence in the last three years and I've never had any issues replacing a real seal. It may also have been my carrier bearing swap seating in.
I found that the noise occurred only upon coasting or deceleration. Not during acceleration.
I hope my theory is correct. Anyone else want to offer their opinion?
Last edited by KahnBB6; 02-26-16 at 11:26 PM.
02-27-16, 05:05 AM
#13
Pit Crew
Thread Starter
tenac... I'm kind of stumped. The only thing I can think of that it sounds like is that your driveshaft may be hitting the output collar due to a clearance issue.
At first I thought it was just open exhaust noise... then I realized it sounded more like specific gears were grinding... but then when I listened to you coast down with your foot off the throttle it sounded more like the driveshaft hitting something.
I could be wrong but if that noise were actually the inside of your transmission you probably wouldn't have gears for very long.
I had a brief issue when I did my MKIII R154 swap whereby the MKIII front driveshaft I used would hit the output collar. My solution was to have that collar removed at a shop. They can be replaced-- and I probably SHOULD get another one to have set aside to replace later if I can be assured that I won't have a clearance issue again. I may have to source a Soarer driveshaft to do that-- doesn't apply to your swap since you already have an SC W58 front driveshaft.
However the principle of it might be what's happening with your W58 swap.
Jack up the car safely and take a look at that output collar and see if you can identify any scoring or obvious metal on metal damage.
Once I removed that collar I still had a very minor contact issue but it was perhaps 1mm of contact and went away, perhaps after grinding off that 1mm of metal from the back of the transmission. The noise at that time was just a little high pitched squealing. I've never had a single recurrence in the last three years and I've never had any issues replacing a real seal. It may also have been my carrier bearing swap seating in.
I found that the noise occurred only upon coasting or deceleration. Not during acceleration.
I hope my theory is correct. Anyone else want to offer their opinion?
At first I thought it was just open exhaust noise... then I realized it sounded more like specific gears were grinding... but then when I listened to you coast down with your foot off the throttle it sounded more like the driveshaft hitting something.
I could be wrong but if that noise were actually the inside of your transmission you probably wouldn't have gears for very long.
I had a brief issue when I did my MKIII R154 swap whereby the MKIII front driveshaft I used would hit the output collar. My solution was to have that collar removed at a shop. They can be replaced-- and I probably SHOULD get another one to have set aside to replace later if I can be assured that I won't have a clearance issue again. I may have to source a Soarer driveshaft to do that-- doesn't apply to your swap since you already have an SC W58 front driveshaft.
However the principle of it might be what's happening with your W58 swap.
Jack up the car safely and take a look at that output collar and see if you can identify any scoring or obvious metal on metal damage.
Once I removed that collar I still had a very minor contact issue but it was perhaps 1mm of contact and went away, perhaps after grinding off that 1mm of metal from the back of the transmission. The noise at that time was just a little high pitched squealing. I've never had a single recurrence in the last three years and I've never had any issues replacing a real seal. It may also have been my carrier bearing swap seating in.
I found that the noise occurred only upon coasting or deceleration. Not during acceleration.
I hope my theory is correct. Anyone else want to offer their opinion?
Why would it be worse in some gears than others if it's the collar?
However, you may have a point. The output shaft collar was bent during shipment and maybe I didn't bend back into shape enough. Do you think the center driveshaft bearing could be bad?
Last edited by tenac2215; 02-27-16 at 09:03 AM.
02-27-16, 02:54 PM
#14
Still doesn't explain the 5th gear horrible grinding. Seems like 3rd is also getting that grinding, just a little quieter.
Why would it be worse in some gears than others if it's the collar?
However, you may have a point. The output shaft collar was bent during shipment and maybe I didn't bend back into shape enough. Do you think the center driveshaft bearing could be bad?
Why would it be worse in some gears than others if it's the collar?
However, you may have a point. The output shaft collar was bent during shipment and maybe I didn't bend back into shape enough. Do you think the center driveshaft bearing could be bad?
The driveshaft and collar issue seems to me to be the cause of the loudest noise I was hearing. The driveshaft center/carrier bearings CAN go bad in rare cases but usually they last a very long time. I still haven't replaced mine. I have a spare new one set aside but it hasn't been needed yet.
What may have happened in my case was that the SC center bearing swapped onto the MKIII driveshaft (does not apply to your swap application) may not have seated in the right spot yet. I have no way of verifying that at this point but that was my guess at the time I had my issue.
Yes, it's possible the center driveshaft bearing could be bad but I think it would be fairly obvious upon inspecting it on a lift.
I do think you should check the transmission output collar for signs of metal on metal scoring but you can check the center bearing while you're in there too.
02-27-16, 03:46 PM
#15
Pit Crew
Thread Starter
It does not explain the 3rd and 5th gear grinding. That may be a separate issue. It is a very old gearbox after all and it may be getting tired. A rebuild in the future might be in order. Still, from this end it's hard to tell just from the video.
The driveshaft and collar issue seems to me to be the cause of the loudest noise I was hearing. The driveshaft center/carrier bearings CAN go bad in rare cases but usually they last a very long time. I still haven't replaced mine. I have a spare new one set aside but it hasn't been needed yet.
What may have happened in my case was that the SC center bearing swapped onto the MKIII driveshaft (does not apply to your swap application) may not have seated in the right spot yet. I have no way of verifying that at this point but that was my guess at the time I had my issue.
Yes, it's possible the center driveshaft bearing could be bad but I think it would be fairly obvious upon inspecting it on a lift.
I do think you should check the transmission output collar for signs of metal on metal scoring but you can check the center bearing while you're in there too.
The driveshaft and collar issue seems to me to be the cause of the loudest noise I was hearing. The driveshaft center/carrier bearings CAN go bad in rare cases but usually they last a very long time. I still haven't replaced mine. I have a spare new one set aside but it hasn't been needed yet.
What may have happened in my case was that the SC center bearing swapped onto the MKIII driveshaft (does not apply to your swap application) may not have seated in the right spot yet. I have no way of verifying that at this point but that was my guess at the time I had my issue.
Yes, it's possible the center driveshaft bearing could be bad but I think it would be fairly obvious upon inspecting it on a lift.
I do think you should check the transmission output collar for signs of metal on metal scoring but you can check the center bearing while you're in there too.
I'm guessing the trans is just junk and has way more than 75k like the eBay a**hole listed. The gears are not the easiest to engage either so synchros are probably shot too. I can hear some grinding when trying to get into third especially.
In better news I found a w58 on craigslist without a shifter or bellhousing, which is perfect for me. Even better the guy says its from a mk3, but it looks like it's an sc model cause of the longer shifter extension and the steel sandwich plate (not gonna tell him that though lol). Only wants $240, so I might try to scoop it up.
I don't think I want to bother with a rebuild because it would be like 800$ to take it somewhere and I'm sure I would screw something up if I tried to do it myself.
