Suspect my M/T ECU needs repair? (rough start and smoke condition) [MOSTLY SOLVED]
03-28-16, 02:30 PM
#151
Oregon residents are lucky in that regard :/ It should just be the sniffer test and some basic function with the required hardware, not visual. The tailpipe output and function are what matter, not how the engine looks.
I had my fuel filter changed with an OEM part at 196K miles. Now I'm at 239.5K. Before 196K the car might have been running on the original filter but I had no problems with it at the time.
I took it to my mechanic and it wasn't so bad as far as I know. They used a lift and I brought the car in with less than 1/4 tank of gas or maybe just 2-3 gallons. Other than the fuel draining I think they just wrench on and off? I'm not disagreeing with you about fuel burning your skin though : /
I didn't think fuel filters were considered a lifetime item at all. Change intervals are often 30K-40K, at least for this car and the MKIV. When you cut open filters (very carefully due to the gasoline residue!) at 100K+ the tissue inside can be really nasty. The 10% Ethanol in nearly all fuel nationwide probably makes this even more necessary than before.
I'm still not sure if that's currently one of my issues or not but my filter is due now so I'm going to take care of it.
I had my fuel filter changed with an OEM part at 196K miles. Now I'm at 239.5K. Before 196K the car might have been running on the original filter but I had no problems with it at the time.
I took it to my mechanic and it wasn't so bad as far as I know. They used a lift and I brought the car in with less than 1/4 tank of gas or maybe just 2-3 gallons. Other than the fuel draining I think they just wrench on and off? I'm not disagreeing with you about fuel burning your skin though : /
I didn't think fuel filters were considered a lifetime item at all. Change intervals are often 30K-40K, at least for this car and the MKIV. When you cut open filters (very carefully due to the gasoline residue!) at 100K+ the tissue inside can be really nasty. The 10% Ethanol in nearly all fuel nationwide probably makes this even more necessary than before.
I'm still not sure if that's currently one of my issues or not but my filter is due now so I'm going to take care of it.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 03-28-16 at 04:51 PM. Reason: Grammatical fixes
03-28-16, 04:42 PM
#152
Could not have said it better. This is what I came across on the first service on the car after purchasing it. It appears that the prior owner tried or had someone try to change the fuel filter only to kink the line almost to the point of rupture. I would estimate that at best I was getting 20% of the required fuel to the injectors prior to fixing it. Unfortunately it required running all new lines, which in turn required dropping the diff, well we dropped the entire subframe, but still was a horrible thing to have to go through. The lines were so frozen that even after cutting it off the car, we were never able to get the lines off the filter.
03-28-16, 04:56 PM
#153
^^ Wow... I stand doubly corrected then. I must have just been lucky with my own experience :/
I'm certainly not going to try doing the filter change myself. When the filter comes in later in the week I'll update here on just how difficult the installation goes. Hopefully it won't be like both of your stories.
The MKIV uses a different style filter but I'm not aware of how different it is.
I'm certainly not going to try doing the filter change myself. When the filter comes in later in the week I'll update here on just how difficult the installation goes. Hopefully it won't be like both of your stories.
The MKIV uses a different style filter but I'm not aware of how different it is.
03-28-16, 05:05 PM
#154
Holy cow, that looks seriously messed up. And dangerous, to boot! I've read that the factory over-torqued the filters to the point of being basically frozen on, and some dealers serviced them for awhile as an unofficial recall, so maybe Kahn you / your mechanic got lucky with a previous owner taking care of it. At any rate, you don't have that to worry about now. 
(I think it was more than just over-torquing, however. The threadlock stuff they used hardens to cement. My mechanic snapped a wrench trying to loosen the fitting at the end of the hard line in the engine bay which contains the same goop. We hoped to get a fuel pressure reading there... I was also unable to break it loose on the parts car, no matter how I tried. The metal will turn to liquid long before the cement releases it's grip. Maybe hitting it with heat is the solution, but who wants to risk that around fuel? Epic fail by Lexus.)
I got my fuel filter off with a fair bit of difficulty, but far less drama and damage than scblackout's P.O., but my misery came with trying to get the new one on. The goop on the fuel line threads made it impossible.
The term might have been "million mile" not lifetime. I don't understand how that's possible, but that's what they supposedly say for the original filter...
(I think it was more than just over-torquing, however. The threadlock stuff they used hardens to cement. My mechanic snapped a wrench trying to loosen the fitting at the end of the hard line in the engine bay which contains the same goop. We hoped to get a fuel pressure reading there... I was also unable to break it loose on the parts car, no matter how I tried. The metal will turn to liquid long before the cement releases it's grip. Maybe hitting it with heat is the solution, but who wants to risk that around fuel? Epic fail by Lexus.)
I got my fuel filter off with a fair bit of difficulty, but far less drama and damage than scblackout's P.O., but my misery came with trying to get the new one on. The goop on the fuel line threads made it impossible.
The term might have been "million mile" not lifetime. I don't understand how that's possible, but that's what they supposedly say for the original filter...
03-29-16, 12:24 AM
#155
I think I did get lucky. The original owner had a lot of pre-emptive repair done to the car well before they traded it in back in 2009 or 2010. Even the entire gauge cluster was replaced with a brand new one at one point. There was plenty of maintenance on this one for a long time until they decided it was too old to keep babying. At least that's what I have gathered from looking up the entire service history. Many, many service notes of the original owner meticulously bringing up some of the smallest issues. Actually the fuel filter probably was replaced at least once before I bought it.
The factory cement you're speaking of sounds terrible. I haven't encountered that yet but I hope not to.
I still don't think these filters are supposed to last that long, however come to think of it I don't think the fuel filters in my family's Toyota/Lexus cars have been replaced in a LONG time and those are running fine.
I guess the original fuel filters were just made of very durable material vs the OEM replacement filters?
The factory cement you're speaking of sounds terrible. I haven't encountered that yet but I hope not to.
I still don't think these filters are supposed to last that long, however come to think of it I don't think the fuel filters in my family's Toyota/Lexus cars have been replaced in a LONG time and those are running fine.
I guess the original fuel filters were just made of very durable material vs the OEM replacement filters?
Last edited by KahnBB6; 03-29-16 at 12:27 AM.
04-01-16, 02:11 AM
#156
Update from 3/31/2016:
--Had my 43K mile fuel filter changed with a new OEM filter. It was a bit worn and it was time to replace it but it wasn't clogged. Car still drove with the 35-40mph+ hesitation as before.
--My mechanic test drove the car with me. He noted the hesitation condition as well.
--After some discussion with my mechanic we ruled out any possibility that the lingering Code 71 might have anything to do with the hesitation. This would be because IF the intake passage were still partly blocked there would be no way for the EGR system to cause the hesitation/misfiring issue because no excess gas would be added to the intake stream. That could only happen with CLEAR passages and *too much* EGR gas being let through via a valve that were left open too far or too long.
--I went home, got out the manual and multimeter and verified the IDLE and VT1 circuits on the new TPS sensor. This time both circuits checked out OK. I attempted to adjust the sensor alignment but when I did I realized that the original position I'd had it in before was indeed the correct one since the numbers were within range at that setting. I put it all back the way it was and reset the ECU.
--Replaced the K&N drop-in air filter with an HKS drop-in high flow filter. Cleaned the built up grime and residue from inside the filter box.
--Inspected the Karman Vortex MAF for any contamination and it looked completely spotless. Both the plastic piece in the middle and both sides of the metal honeycomb and the mesh matrix were all very clean. I left that alone.
--On a hunch I checked the distributor cap and rotor for wear. The cap points looked okay but the rotor looked like it was worn so I'll get one tomorrow and replace it. That would be the second prematurely worn rotor during this whole tuneup saga. I'm pretty sure the plug wires that were last installed were not OEM Denso so I wonder if that has had anything to do with it... but then I remember that a lot of parts were out of tune and being diagnosed right after my last recent plug/cap/rotor/wire service.
Upon getting in the car and driving it up and down the highway after all of this, there was some of the hesitation at first but then it seemed to go away entirely for the rest of the drive. I hadn't reset the ECU the after installing and adjusting the new TPS last week so maybe that has something to do with it. That and the worn rotor.
If I've managed to cure the issue after correcting a minor mistake I'll be very happy.
The car started up fine after cooling down for three hours. Will see how it starts when entirely cold tomorrow.
As for the Code 71, right at 16 miles after the reset the CEL came back again. The new EGR temp sensor comes in Monday.
--Had my 43K mile fuel filter changed with a new OEM filter. It was a bit worn and it was time to replace it but it wasn't clogged. Car still drove with the 35-40mph+ hesitation as before.
--My mechanic test drove the car with me. He noted the hesitation condition as well.
--After some discussion with my mechanic we ruled out any possibility that the lingering Code 71 might have anything to do with the hesitation. This would be because IF the intake passage were still partly blocked there would be no way for the EGR system to cause the hesitation/misfiring issue because no excess gas would be added to the intake stream. That could only happen with CLEAR passages and *too much* EGR gas being let through via a valve that were left open too far or too long.
--I went home, got out the manual and multimeter and verified the IDLE and VT1 circuits on the new TPS sensor. This time both circuits checked out OK. I attempted to adjust the sensor alignment but when I did I realized that the original position I'd had it in before was indeed the correct one since the numbers were within range at that setting. I put it all back the way it was and reset the ECU.
--Replaced the K&N drop-in air filter with an HKS drop-in high flow filter. Cleaned the built up grime and residue from inside the filter box.
--Inspected the Karman Vortex MAF for any contamination and it looked completely spotless. Both the plastic piece in the middle and both sides of the metal honeycomb and the mesh matrix were all very clean. I left that alone.
--On a hunch I checked the distributor cap and rotor for wear. The cap points looked okay but the rotor looked like it was worn so I'll get one tomorrow and replace it. That would be the second prematurely worn rotor during this whole tuneup saga. I'm pretty sure the plug wires that were last installed were not OEM Denso so I wonder if that has had anything to do with it... but then I remember that a lot of parts were out of tune and being diagnosed right after my last recent plug/cap/rotor/wire service.
Upon getting in the car and driving it up and down the highway after all of this, there was some of the hesitation at first but then it seemed to go away entirely for the rest of the drive. I hadn't reset the ECU the after installing and adjusting the new TPS last week so maybe that has something to do with it. That and the worn rotor.
If I've managed to cure the issue after correcting a minor mistake I'll be very happy.
The car started up fine after cooling down for three hours. Will see how it starts when entirely cold tomorrow.
As for the Code 71, right at 16 miles after the reset the CEL came back again. The new EGR temp sensor comes in Monday.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 04-01-16 at 02:17 AM.
04-01-16, 09:58 PM
#157
Update 4/1/2016:
This is ABSOLUTELY not an April Fool's joke. I could but I won't
Still no verdict on total cold starting yet but it seems through all the other repairs my recently replaced distributor rotor was a big contributor to the hesitation issue. I got a new Denso rotor this afternoon and put it in. Hesitation was gone. The very new cap looked okay but I suspect I should also check the spark plugs and possibly get genuine OEM plug wires to swap in. Maybe just plugs will do.
This would have been the second time recently the rotor (and possibly plugs) have worn very prematurely. I can only guess that this was caused by the original ECU's leaking capacitors, a bad TPS sensor, dirty IACV, carbon buildup in the intake manifold, dirty air filter, leaking original fuel injectors, partly clogged EGR system, bad ECU coolant temperature sensor and anything else I haven't mentioned that I've been repairing lately.
The car drives fine now other than feeling slightly down on power (no different from yesterday so nothing there has actually changed) now that I've been able to drive normally after the clutch break-in.
Idle was ever so slightly rough and now it's smooth again after the rotor change. No more hiccuping at speed.
So funny to think that after all this my hesitation/hiccup at 35-40+ mph culprit might have been rotor and plugs which I hadn't considered since they were just done a little while ago but that seems to be the case!
...
So as before, just waiting on the EGR temp sensor to arrive and to see if the cold start rough idle is still there over the next few mornings.
The flexible EGR port boring drill bit came in today. It was $37 well spent. Very good quality piece and yes, it is the right length to go all the way into the 2JZ-GE's EGR port including that metal tube area that is so hard to clean.
It's made and sold by Automotive Specialty Tools and is called "The Snake-Bit EGR Cleaner CAT". SKU CAT-9 in their inventory. I'm not sure anyone else makes something like this but it's similar to using any old mechanical speedo cable to do the same thing. This bit is different in that it's very tough but very flexible and has a fine boring/scraping bit at the end to get at carbon buildup in the passages.
This is ABSOLUTELY not an April Fool's joke. I could but I won't
Still no verdict on total cold starting yet but it seems through all the other repairs my recently replaced distributor rotor was a big contributor to the hesitation issue. I got a new Denso rotor this afternoon and put it in. Hesitation was gone. The very new cap looked okay but I suspect I should also check the spark plugs and possibly get genuine OEM plug wires to swap in. Maybe just plugs will do.
This would have been the second time recently the rotor (and possibly plugs) have worn very prematurely. I can only guess that this was caused by the original ECU's leaking capacitors, a bad TPS sensor, dirty IACV, carbon buildup in the intake manifold, dirty air filter, leaking original fuel injectors, partly clogged EGR system, bad ECU coolant temperature sensor and anything else I haven't mentioned that I've been repairing lately.
The car drives fine now other than feeling slightly down on power (no different from yesterday so nothing there has actually changed) now that I've been able to drive normally after the clutch break-in.
Idle was ever so slightly rough and now it's smooth again after the rotor change. No more hiccuping at speed.
So funny to think that after all this my hesitation/hiccup at 35-40+ mph culprit might have been rotor and plugs which I hadn't considered since they were just done a little while ago but that seems to be the case!
...
So as before, just waiting on the EGR temp sensor to arrive and to see if the cold start rough idle is still there over the next few mornings.
The flexible EGR port boring drill bit came in today. It was $37 well spent. Very good quality piece and yes, it is the right length to go all the way into the 2JZ-GE's EGR port including that metal tube area that is so hard to clean.
It's made and sold by Automotive Specialty Tools and is called "The Snake-Bit EGR Cleaner CAT". SKU CAT-9 in their inventory. I'm not sure anyone else makes something like this but it's similar to using any old mechanical speedo cable to do the same thing. This bit is different in that it's very tough but very flexible and has a fine boring/scraping bit at the end to get at carbon buildup in the passages.
04-02-16, 10:33 AM
#158
check the inside of the distributor cap, is there any oil mist or residue? sometimes they leak a litle internally and it messes with the sensors and the rotor. I think you just replaced the distributor recently so its probably not that but worth a check. I find the aftermarket rotors work like 50% of the time, when I had the dizzy I always went with the toyota one through toyota and it would never have issues. the time I tried a regular parts store one I got 2 bad ones in a row and car wouldn't run on all 6.
good work on the EGR, I would have blocked it off and had a corona to celebrate but your way will work better.
good work on the EGR, I would have blocked it off and had a corona to celebrate but your way will work better.
04-03-16, 05:03 PM
#159
Thanks Ali! Nope, no oil or mist or residue inside the distributor cap. That wasn't even a problem with the original distributor. I did just recently replace the distributor with a brand new OEM unit. It did say "1JZ-GE" on the side because I had a cheaper new one imported from Japan but the part number and function are the same.
I almost bought an aftermarket rotor the other day but it looked very different from the OEM rotor so I passed. I found an OEM in stock at a local Lexus dealer and put that in.
The hesitation issue, I found, didn't completely go away but it was greatly diminished and acceleration was MUCH smoother. I attribute the rest to my mechanic not having used the best plugs and possibly the aftermarket wires he used which I do not think were great quality despite being spec'd for the 2JZ-GE.
I've ordered some Denso PK16R11 plugs that I will install. I have a set of new Duralast plug wires I had to purchase weeks ago to get a new igniter cord that broke on the wire set currently in the car.
But would I be advised to just stick with OEM Toyota wires over the Duralast brand?
Some good news is that the rough cold startup idle hesitation truly does appear to have been solved! For a couple of days now every time the car has been quite cold it's started up normally! The culprits were either the TPS sensor having gone bad (and the new replacement did absolutely require an ECU reset), the fuel filter needing replacing at 43K miles... or both. The bad ignition rotor may have been at fault too but the startup issue seemed to show up after my plugs, wires, cap and rotor were just done.
I feel all the other systems which required fixing probably have been making the ignition system work harder. Now that they're almost all fixed I probably will be fine. Either that or the plugs really weren't the best type to use. I'll find out what model plugs were installed soon when I get in there.
Thanks on the EGR system, Ali! It's been an ordeal but I want this car to have no issues for testing even if the GTE swap will come sooner than the next interval.
...
And my PS pump whining at startup is lingering a bit longer than it had before so right after all my smog and registration is out of the way that's something I have to address. The PS rack too eventually because it does have a minor leak on one side but that can wait. The PS lines are all new as of at least 20k miles ago or less. I'm thinking of using an MKIV PS rack when I get to that since it's supposed to be a larger diameter that emphasizes power assist less than the SC version does. From what I've learned there is almost no difference in the turns lock to lock between the two cars.
I almost bought an aftermarket rotor the other day but it looked very different from the OEM rotor so I passed. I found an OEM in stock at a local Lexus dealer and put that in.
The hesitation issue, I found, didn't completely go away but it was greatly diminished and acceleration was MUCH smoother. I attribute the rest to my mechanic not having used the best plugs and possibly the aftermarket wires he used which I do not think were great quality despite being spec'd for the 2JZ-GE.
I've ordered some Denso PK16R11 plugs that I will install. I have a set of new Duralast plug wires I had to purchase weeks ago to get a new igniter cord that broke on the wire set currently in the car.
But would I be advised to just stick with OEM Toyota wires over the Duralast brand?
Some good news is that the rough cold startup idle hesitation truly does appear to have been solved! For a couple of days now every time the car has been quite cold it's started up normally! The culprits were either the TPS sensor having gone bad (and the new replacement did absolutely require an ECU reset), the fuel filter needing replacing at 43K miles... or both. The bad ignition rotor may have been at fault too but the startup issue seemed to show up after my plugs, wires, cap and rotor were just done.
I feel all the other systems which required fixing probably have been making the ignition system work harder. Now that they're almost all fixed I probably will be fine. Either that or the plugs really weren't the best type to use. I'll find out what model plugs were installed soon when I get in there.
Thanks on the EGR system, Ali! It's been an ordeal but I want this car to have no issues for testing even if the GTE swap will come sooner than the next interval.
...
And my PS pump whining at startup is lingering a bit longer than it had before so right after all my smog and registration is out of the way that's something I have to address. The PS rack too eventually because it does have a minor leak on one side but that can wait. The PS lines are all new as of at least 20k miles ago or less. I'm thinking of using an MKIV PS rack when I get to that since it's supposed to be a larger diameter that emphasizes power assist less than the SC version does. From what I've learned there is almost no difference in the turns lock to lock between the two cars.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 04-03-16 at 05:06 PM.
04-06-16, 09:50 PM
#160
The new OEM EGR temperature sensor has been installed. After an ECU reset there is no CEL after 38 miles on the trip odometer. Hopefully it stays that way at 50 miles and 100 miles after the ECU reset.
Next order of business:
--Install Denso PK16R11 spark plugs, new OEM Denso brand plug wires and possibly replace the cap and rotor a third time just to keep everything at a baseline.
--Use bendable EGR cleaning bit on the "Y" plenum just because I'll be in there anyway while doing the plugs.
That should do it for the original reason this thread was started. My cold start rough idle for 3 to 30 seconds is completely gone. All the other symptoms from the original posting are gone. The car is running really well now other than the questionable plugs and wires in it currently. I just took it on a spirited highway drive and I barely noticed any hesitation.
This is just about solved.
After that the only glaring issue is getting a new remanufactured PS pump installed. I'm strongly considering converting to the TT PS fluid reservoir at the same time since I have all those parts. I am only missing the rubber mounting bushings for the TT reservoir. I don't think its placement will get in the way of doing any 2JZ-GE maintenance in that location.
Next order of business:
--Install Denso PK16R11 spark plugs, new OEM Denso brand plug wires and possibly replace the cap and rotor a third time just to keep everything at a baseline.
--Use bendable EGR cleaning bit on the "Y" plenum just because I'll be in there anyway while doing the plugs.
That should do it for the original reason this thread was started. My cold start rough idle for 3 to 30 seconds is completely gone. All the other symptoms from the original posting are gone. The car is running really well now other than the questionable plugs and wires in it currently. I just took it on a spirited highway drive and I barely noticed any hesitation.
This is just about solved.
After that the only glaring issue is getting a new remanufactured PS pump installed. I'm strongly considering converting to the TT PS fluid reservoir at the same time since I have all those parts. I am only missing the rubber mounting bushings for the TT reservoir. I don't think its placement will get in the way of doing any 2JZ-GE maintenance in that location.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 04-06-16 at 09:54 PM.
04-06-16, 11:27 PM
#163
I haven't heard of it being an exact mileage figure, but I suppose that makes more sense than it being time-based (which would be loosely the same as mileage, anyway).
When I've had CEL troubleshooting to do, it hasn't seemed to hold off for a set amount of time/distance before being tripped again, and has certainly happened within 100 miles of clearing codes. I'm not sure what to make of that in terms of your question... Resetting of codes is probably a separate issue from the ECU relearning fuel trims and what not.
When I've had CEL troubleshooting to do, it hasn't seemed to hold off for a set amount of time/distance before being tripped again, and has certainly happened within 100 miles of clearing codes. I'm not sure what to make of that in terms of your question... Resetting of codes is probably a separate issue from the ECU relearning fuel trims and what not.
04-09-16, 02:12 AM
#164
You're right. It must be learning cycle based without any set mileage. The figures usually given to have "allowed the computer to learn..." are probably just a safe margin. I've tried predicting when the ECU has had its full learning cycle throughout all of this troubleshooting but it's been fairly random.
As of tonight I'm 84 miles post reset and no CEL. Also, I am not noticing any hesitation on acceleration any longer. I'd just gathered up another new rotor, new Denso wires and new plugs but I don't think I need to put them in since I am no longer noticing any symptom to warrant them. If I don't get a CEL again I don't think I'll even bother using the EGR port cleaning snake at this time. I'll just take it in for my emissions pre-test and if that checks out, I'll get my official test done and have that hurdle over with.
It's made me wonder if, after fixing all the other issues, a bad EGR temp sensor really can cause drivability issues on an otherwise fully working, cleaned and sorted EGR system. Seems to be what's happened in my case because for the last couple of days since installing a new one and resetting the ECU my SC has been running like a top.
The only drivability complaint I have now is the same one as when I bought the car: it's missing a set of turbos
As of tonight I'm 84 miles post reset and no CEL. Also, I am not noticing any hesitation on acceleration any longer. I'd just gathered up another new rotor, new Denso wires and new plugs but I don't think I need to put them in since I am no longer noticing any symptom to warrant them. If I don't get a CEL again I don't think I'll even bother using the EGR port cleaning snake at this time. I'll just take it in for my emissions pre-test and if that checks out, I'll get my official test done and have that hurdle over with.
It's made me wonder if, after fixing all the other issues, a bad EGR temp sensor really can cause drivability issues on an otherwise fully working, cleaned and sorted EGR system. Seems to be what's happened in my case because for the last couple of days since installing a new one and resetting the ECU my SC has been running like a top.
The only drivability complaint I have now is the same one as when I bought the car: it's missing a set of turbos
Last edited by KahnBB6; 04-09-16 at 02:16 AM.
04-09-16, 07:20 AM
#165
It's made me wonder if, after fixing all the other issues, a bad EGR temp sensor really can cause drivability issues on an otherwise fully working, cleaned and sorted EGR system. Seems to be what's happened in my case because for the last couple of days since installing a new one and resetting the ECU my SC has been running like a top.