SEIDO

iTrader: (1)

How many people are currently using a methanol-injection system?

I've been hearing a lot about this lately; it seems to be a trend now.
The concept interests me however, because although it's used with turbo motors, to reduce the temperature as a result of higher compression ...
The way I understand it, there shouldn't be much difference in function on an N/A motor (save for the power gains). From what I gather, the water/methanol mixture does a few things that seem beneficial with just about any motor:

1. Steam-cleaning the internals.

2. Reducing Intake-Air Temperature.

3. Eliminates "Knock".

4. Advances Timing (as a result of #3).

5. More Economical.

6. Cheaper than Nitrous.

7. Cheaper than Race-Fuel.

8. You can run it (safely) all the time.


So I've browsed different forums besides this one (Subaru, BMW, Nissan, etc.) and some people are saying that it would instead reduce power in an N/A car ...
However, I don't know who those people are exactly, nor their level of understanding on the subjects of chemistry and physics; so I'm taking it with a grain of salt. They're basically saying that the water molecules take up space which could have been oxygen molecules instead; therefore you're reducing combustion quality, by having a lesser amount of cold-air ...
What I'm thinking however, is that it's not the oxygen that burns, as oxygen is just an oxidizer; so the given amount of methanol would compensate for the reduced number of oxygen molecules. In other words, it isn't purely a more-empty cylinder. Therefore, you ought to achieve greater combustion than usual, regardless, and as a result more power.

I could be missing something, so enlighten me; however is anyone currently using such a system, and better-yet, does anyone naturally-aspirated have experience with one?

Kris9884

iTrader: (7)

LMAO, way to get some attention. To me, meth inject and boost go hand in hand since it cools the air drastically and raises the octane count to maybe 98-100 from 91-93, there's nothing but benefits if used as intended. As for NA with lower compression motors like ours, I can only assume it wouldn't be as effective but I could be wrong?

t2d2

iTrader: (8)

I would think heroin is more the taste of Lexus owners...

With regard to knock and timing, how exactly do our ECUs operate? I would think timing is a baseline setting and the ECU retards it as necessary to avoid knock. If so, meth injection isn't really advancing timing (from the usual perspective of performance boosts) so much as the ECU isn't pulling it. It's splitting hairs, perhaps, but would mean there's no such advantage to meth injection if your ECU isn't currently needing to pull timing.

INTIMAZY

iTrader: (5)

It's a great band-aid for cars with horrible head flow (BMW N54/N55) and for motors that already run a ton of boost from the factory (Evo 4B11T) but a bit more limited to our platform since we don't run 20+ pounds of boost from the factory stock. It's a great option for lifting knock threshold and letting you run extra psi unnaturally I think E85 surpasses it but for areas that don't have ethanol available (NYC) its a great option.

scmaluco

iTrader: (6)

Meth seems a little too heavy, stick with weed or Coke. lol. I swear some of these topics are to die for. Anyways I ran a kit from Devils own on my skyline r33 and on my 1jzgte single turbo.. I ran 50/50 mix and loved it .. It was boost activated.. Great kit for a good price..

HiPSI

iTrader: (2)

The reason meth injection will not benefit a naturally aspirated application is because methanol / alcohol will raise your octane level (add fuel), which will lower A/F's richen the tune, and thus making the car run slower. In my DSM days I showed up to the track once and ran a few passes and then decided I wanted to put CAM2 race gas in the tank to make it faster. My 1/8 mile times directly after adding CAM2 were slower because the tune was now pig rich. It required me to retune the car , lean it out significantly and raise timing to get the added benefits of the race gas. The age old saying is "leaner is meaner" , this is true the leaner the A/F generally the faster or more power the engine will make, to a point.

For a turbocharged application alcohol injection is ideal because the added octane level burns slower and is less prone to knock at X psi, or may allow for an even higher boost setting before the knock threshold. Combining the benefits of cooler intake temps and higher octane levels allows you to run higher boost / more timing than before. The gain in power is directly related to higher boost / higher timing as a result of alcohol injection increasing the octane rating and lowering intake temps. Pump gas by itself has a much lower knock threshold (knocks easier) then say race gas, or e85.

Water injection has great benefits for cooling air temps and cleaning the combustion / intake chambers. There is a point where injecting to much or at the wrong time in the RPM band / Throttle position can cause the engine to bog so it requires a trial and error approach to find the right mixture. Keep in mind you can accidentally hydro lock your engine due to the system failing or spraying incorrectly. Many have had a solenoid fail / nozzle failure and unknowingly flooded the cylinders with water and then attempted to start the engine. Always test the system OUTSIDE of the engine to make sure whatever input you are using to trigger the system is functioning as it should and not spraying at the wrong times.

Why not put together a small NA-T setup and then maybe look into meth / water injection as a safety net? I would take it one step at a time.

Keep in mind alot of people have engine failures when running high boost levels / higher timing settings while running meth injection due to the lack of fail safes in place when the system fails. This is why e85 is MUCH safer, less components in the system to fail. If you get a clogged nozzle / water line break / run out of alcohol / pump failure during a hard WOT pull you will go lean and it only take a split second to roast a piston. The best approach is to use it to slightly raise boost , and make sure you have some failsafes / pressure gauges / tuning tools to alert you if the system is malfunctioning.

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

^^
I've thought of installing an Aquamist water injection system post swap as an added safety measure. All I've read about water injection suggests to me that it works like meth injection but with little or no power benefit and only an elevated safety threshold. Not sure if I could get away with it or not out here (CA) depending on how obvious it might be. What HiPSI just mentioned about potential hydrolock due to a nozzle failure would concern me though.

Also, BMW just announced a production model M4 GTS with a factory water injection system. It doesn't add that much more power and torque over the same engine without the system.

matguy

Well, even pure water should both reduce the pre-detonation air/fuel temperature and increase compression, plus reduce knock tendencies. In an NA engine you might see a slight increase in power depending on how much you're spraying (remember, it displaces air), but it might allow you to use lower octane (cheaper) gas without the ECU retarding timing. Not sure if that's actually worth it on its own.

Both water sprays and meth-water sprays seem to do more for fixing a problem rather than helping an otherwise well functioning engine. If you're not knocking now, there's probably not much it'll help you with.

Kris9884

iTrader: (7)

How about for the Nitrous guys? Would spraying water/meth AND nitrous just do that much more? Or at least make it even safer to run maybe a 125 wet shot instead of a 75?

INTIMAZY

iTrader: (5)

Because nitrous naturally reduces detonation, I doubt it would be synergistic in any useful way with water/meth.

matguy

They work fine together. While they're both cold, the water injection is a bit above ambient temperature once it gets sprayed (ambient plus whatever heat it soaks up in the travel to the nozzles), so that's not cooling it to cold. The NO2 is cold, though it's rarely sprayed long enough to cool anything worrisome inside the engine. Together the water would actually help offset the effects of cold of the NO2 by actually raising the temp of the now wet air coming in to the heads.

It's all relative, adding 2 different things that are cooler than the engine will reduce temperatures, but they aren't cumulative below the temperature of the cooler one. If that makes sense.

matguy

While the NO2 is cold when initially released as a vapor and cools down the cylinder during intake, that is quickly offset by the increases in explosive temperatures. It's the hot spots that can then cause premature detonation during NO2 use. The water injection can help cool these hot spots.

Although, and I meant to mention this before, it's another mix to tune.

Also, neither NO2 nor water injection are new nor mystical things. Oldsmobile was water injecting production engines in the 60's.

t2d2

iTrader: (8)

That's a complicated way of saying temperatures average each other out.

GISguy

Haha based on its marketing, it looks like if anything, the SC300's customerbase when new was more the 'ludes and coke type XD