Soarer R154 or MK3 Supra r154
11-19-14, 05:53 PM
#1
Soarer R154 or MK3 Supra r154
Is there anything different between the two besides the necessary shifter extension from MK3....
I would prefer to get a real JDM soarer r154 transmission from the engine importer I purchased my Aristo 2JZGTE from....they are looking for $2k for the JDM r154
Also I know there is a tripod and non-tripod model for a JDM r154......anything different.....Is there one that has stronger internals...etc..
Opinions....or thoughts...which is better?
I would prefer to get a real JDM soarer r154 transmission from the engine importer I purchased my Aristo 2JZGTE from....they are looking for $2k for the JDM r154
Also I know there is a tripod and non-tripod model for a JDM r154......anything different.....Is there one that has stronger internals...etc..
Opinions....or thoughts...which is better?
Last edited by CatManD3W; 11-19-14 at 05:57 PM.
11-20-14, 07:06 AM
#2
The biggest difference independent of the housing or tripod versions is that the tail housing of all JDM Soarer R154's from Soarers and Chasers can use an OEM SC/MKIV W58 transmission mount and crossmember.
JDM Soarer R154's from 91-93 use the extension housing (the infamously rare part and matching internal arm)
JDM Soarer R154's from 94-00 use the tripod extension which is *nearly* identical to the shifter on V160's minus reverse.
Now other than that...
The internals on the MK3 R154 and 91-93 Soarer R154's should be exactly the same. Later model JDM R154's supposedly use different bearings and synchros and can't use all the Marlin Crawler parts available-- but you'd have to confirm that with Aaron at Driftmotion. I don't know for sure. It might only pertain to 1996-05 JDM R154's because that was when the Soarer and Chaser first got the 1JZ VVT-i BEAMS engines and other changes. It is *possible* that 1994-1995 tripod R154's still use exactly the same bearings, synchros and shift forks as the MK3 R154. I don't know that for sure either but those are the years most likely to have received the driveline updates from Toyota's "BEAMS" program.
If you want to have the strongest R154 possible, be it MK3 or JDM Soarer, you need to have it rebuilt with all new bearings, billet front bearing retainer plate, billet 1st gear thrust washer, and replace all shift forks with billet units and (for the sake of your engine) stay away from heavy pressure plates.
I have read that the late model tripod R154's with their synchro improvements are the best shifting of the bunch, however after rebuilding my MK3 box I love it.
All R154's regardless of year or origin still require an MK3 front driveshaft.
JDM Soarer R154's from 91-93 use the extension housing (the infamously rare part and matching internal arm)
JDM Soarer R154's from 94-00 use the tripod extension which is *nearly* identical to the shifter on V160's minus reverse.
Now other than that...
The internals on the MK3 R154 and 91-93 Soarer R154's should be exactly the same. Later model JDM R154's supposedly use different bearings and synchros and can't use all the Marlin Crawler parts available-- but you'd have to confirm that with Aaron at Driftmotion. I don't know for sure. It might only pertain to 1996-05 JDM R154's because that was when the Soarer and Chaser first got the 1JZ VVT-i BEAMS engines and other changes. It is *possible* that 1994-1995 tripod R154's still use exactly the same bearings, synchros and shift forks as the MK3 R154. I don't know that for sure either but those are the years most likely to have received the driveline updates from Toyota's "BEAMS" program.
If you want to have the strongest R154 possible, be it MK3 or JDM Soarer, you need to have it rebuilt with all new bearings, billet front bearing retainer plate, billet 1st gear thrust washer, and replace all shift forks with billet units and (for the sake of your engine) stay away from heavy pressure plates.
I have read that the late model tripod R154's with their synchro improvements are the best shifting of the bunch, however after rebuilding my MK3 box I love it.
All R154's regardless of year or origin still require an MK3 front driveshaft.
11-20-14, 09:13 AM
#5
I read the tripod versions have something updated for a little better shifting, I think it was the synchro's. Its not something that affects how much power it can hold before it breaks. I think both the r154 and w58's got slight improvements when they went tripod.
Another thing to note is the center sandwhich plate on the transmission is aluminum on all the later ones, and cast iron which is painted black on the earlier ones (mk3). I am not sure which one is "stronger" or if that part of the box matters what its made out of but the aluminum one will sure be "lighter".
the main advantages to the JDM one would be that its newer, and I do like the shift feel of the tripod transmissions.
Another thing to note is the center sandwhich plate on the transmission is aluminum on all the later ones, and cast iron which is painted black on the earlier ones (mk3). I am not sure which one is "stronger" or if that part of the box matters what its made out of but the aluminum one will sure be "lighter".
the main advantages to the JDM one would be that its newer, and I do like the shift feel of the tripod transmissions.
11-20-14, 09:16 AM
#6
I read the tripod versions have something updated for a little better shifting, I think it was the synchro's. Its not something that affects how much power it can hold before it breaks. I think both the r154 and w58's got slight improvements when they went tripod.
Another thing to note is the center sandwhich plate on the transmission is aluminum on all the later ones, and cast iron which is painted black on the earlier ones (mk3). I am not sure which one is "stronger" or if that part of the box matters what its made out of but the aluminum one will sure be "lighter".
the main advantages to the JDM one would be that its newer, and I do like the shift feel of the tripod transmissions.
Another thing to note is the center sandwhich plate on the transmission is aluminum on all the later ones, and cast iron which is painted black on the earlier ones (mk3). I am not sure which one is "stronger" or if that part of the box matters what its made out of but the aluminum one will sure be "lighter".
the main advantages to the JDM one would be that its newer, and I do like the shift feel of the tripod transmissions.
Since my SC is a 92 a non tripod should be a bolt in......but would I need modifications if I wanted to do a newer tripod from a 1jzgte vvti
11-20-14, 02:37 PM
#7
Well the tunnels are a little different between tripod and non tripod, the tripod tunnel for a w58 or a r154 is the same as the v160 tunnel more or less, more clearance for the tripod.
your is the non-tripod so a mk3 r154 with an extension should be the closest in fit for you. depending on the extension length you may need to mod the shifter hole some.
I can't remember if you have to swap tunnels if using a tripod in a non-tripod car. hopefully someone will chime in on that I probably wouldn't swap tunnels unless it was for a v160.
I would think a BFH would take care of anything that came close to touching but you probalby want more specific info. at the worst case it would be a tunnel cut and swap.
your is the non-tripod so a mk3 r154 with an extension should be the closest in fit for you. depending on the extension length you may need to mod the shifter hole some.
I can't remember if you have to swap tunnels if using a tripod in a non-tripod car. hopefully someone will chime in on that I probably wouldn't swap tunnels unless it was for a v160.
I would think a BFH would take care of anything that came close to touching but you probalby want more specific info. at the worst case it would be a tunnel cut and swap.
Trending Topics
11-20-14, 03:17 PM
#8
Well the tunnels are a little different between tripod and non tripod, the tripod tunnel for a w58 or a r154 is the same as the v160 tunnel more or less, more clearance for the tripod.
your is the non-tripod so a mk3 r154 with an extension should be the closest in fit for you. depending on the extension length you may need to mod the shifter hole some.
I can't remember if you have to swap tunnels if using a tripod in a non-tripod car. hopefully someone will chime in on that I probably wouldn't swap tunnels unless it was for a v160.
I would think a BFH would take care of anything that came close to touching but you probalby want more specific info. at the worst case it would be a tunnel cut and swap.
your is the non-tripod so a mk3 r154 with an extension should be the closest in fit for you. depending on the extension length you may need to mod the shifter hole some.
I can't remember if you have to swap tunnels if using a tripod in a non-tripod car. hopefully someone will chime in on that I probably wouldn't swap tunnels unless it was for a v160.
I would think a BFH would take care of anything that came close to touching but you probalby want more specific info. at the worst case it would be a tunnel cut and swap.
I may just do the tunnel to begin with...since it doesnt cost that much for the actual tunnel....I would like to run the newer tripod design
Last edited by CatManD3W; 11-20-14 at 03:26 PM.
11-20-14, 07:50 PM
#9
The sandwich plate changes only applied to W58's. The MK3 W58 boxes had the aluminum plates. All SC300 and MKIV W58's (extension housing and tripod versions alike) had the steel sandwich plates. R154's have always had more durable steel sandwich plates regardless of year, version or vehicle application.
CatManD3W, if you have a 92 5-speed your bolt-in options will be: MK3 R154 with aftermarket 1.125" or OEM 1.125" extension housing OR a 1991-1993 Soarer R154. Both those gearboxes will shift exactly the same way. No trans tunnel modification needed.
For any tripod application you will need to modify the trans tunnel (which makes you loose the noise and heat protection of the OEM dust boots) or replace the trans tunnel with a V160 6-speed tunnel. The tripod shifter for the W58/R154 is almost identical to the V160 tripod minus the reverse function. Or at least the shifter is. The actual tripod extension is probably unique for the W, R or V transmissions but they ALL come out in the same factory location in the SC/Soarer and MKIV.
You could also source the trans tunnel for the 1995-1997 SC300 5-speed as it should be the same part... but pricier.
I got my MK3 R154 with 89k original miles (personally verified the odometer of the Supra it came from) but I still had it rebuilt just because I wanted the thrust washer issue taken care of before I ever had to possibly, maybe deal with it. From my experience with this one MK3 box I think they're great when everything is within spec.
I would go with whichever version makes more sense to you to meet your goals.
Edit -- Three other notes:
With MK3 and 91-93 Soarer R154's you have one short shifter option in the SupraSport V3. You would otherwise re-use your stock SC300 W58 swan shifter (same between the non-tripod W58 and R154). With Tripod versions there are a few short shifter options available which (I think?) share some compatibility with the V160 but I urge you to verify this to be safe.
Note that with ALL R154's (and V160's) you don't get a synchronized reverse. Blindly selecting reverse can cause a grind because the shafts haven't equalized in speed on their own. This means you need to throw the transmission into a forward gear and THEN select reverse. If there is difficulty getting reverse selected, roll forward and select reverse again or put the clutch in, select neutral, roll backward slightly, then select first and, again, select reverse. It sounds complicated here but it really becomes second nature and isn't a big deal.
Third note is to disable your neutral safety switch (since you have a 92 5-speed) and get used to starting in neutral. Why? Because of the R154 (and V160) design you can cause excessive wear on the 2JZ's rear crank bearing at startup which can lead to crank walk failure down the road. This happens because that crank thrust washer in the 2JZ engine has no oil at startup and it getting compressed can wear it down (over time). The easy fix is to disconnect your NSS at the pedal, use a small jumper on the circuit and always start in neutral and wait a few seconds (3-5) before pushing the clutch in. This is just a little known design flaw on the part of Toyota and an easy issue to avoid by following those easy steps. W58's and W55's in the IS300 do not have the potential to cause this issue by nature of their design.
^^ This is also another reason why it's better to try a clutch combination that uses the OEM pressure plate or one close to the same lighter feel. That, or a twin plate clutch but those are expensive as clutches go.
CatManD3W, if you have a 92 5-speed your bolt-in options will be: MK3 R154 with aftermarket 1.125" or OEM 1.125" extension housing OR a 1991-1993 Soarer R154. Both those gearboxes will shift exactly the same way. No trans tunnel modification needed.
For any tripod application you will need to modify the trans tunnel (which makes you loose the noise and heat protection of the OEM dust boots) or replace the trans tunnel with a V160 6-speed tunnel. The tripod shifter for the W58/R154 is almost identical to the V160 tripod minus the reverse function. Or at least the shifter is. The actual tripod extension is probably unique for the W, R or V transmissions but they ALL come out in the same factory location in the SC/Soarer and MKIV.
You could also source the trans tunnel for the 1995-1997 SC300 5-speed as it should be the same part... but pricier.
I got my MK3 R154 with 89k original miles (personally verified the odometer of the Supra it came from) but I still had it rebuilt just because I wanted the thrust washer issue taken care of before I ever had to possibly, maybe deal with it. From my experience with this one MK3 box I think they're great when everything is within spec.
I would go with whichever version makes more sense to you to meet your goals.
Edit -- Three other notes:
With MK3 and 91-93 Soarer R154's you have one short shifter option in the SupraSport V3. You would otherwise re-use your stock SC300 W58 swan shifter (same between the non-tripod W58 and R154). With Tripod versions there are a few short shifter options available which (I think?) share some compatibility with the V160 but I urge you to verify this to be safe.
Note that with ALL R154's (and V160's) you don't get a synchronized reverse. Blindly selecting reverse can cause a grind because the shafts haven't equalized in speed on their own. This means you need to throw the transmission into a forward gear and THEN select reverse. If there is difficulty getting reverse selected, roll forward and select reverse again or put the clutch in, select neutral, roll backward slightly, then select first and, again, select reverse. It sounds complicated here but it really becomes second nature and isn't a big deal.
Third note is to disable your neutral safety switch (since you have a 92 5-speed) and get used to starting in neutral. Why? Because of the R154 (and V160) design you can cause excessive wear on the 2JZ's rear crank bearing at startup which can lead to crank walk failure down the road. This happens because that crank thrust washer in the 2JZ engine has no oil at startup and it getting compressed can wear it down (over time). The easy fix is to disconnect your NSS at the pedal, use a small jumper on the circuit and always start in neutral and wait a few seconds (3-5) before pushing the clutch in. This is just a little known design flaw on the part of Toyota and an easy issue to avoid by following those easy steps. W58's and W55's in the IS300 do not have the potential to cause this issue by nature of their design.
^^ This is also another reason why it's better to try a clutch combination that uses the OEM pressure plate or one close to the same lighter feel. That, or a twin plate clutch but those are expensive as clutches go.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 11-20-14 at 07:56 PM.
11-21-14, 10:58 AM
#11
I guess you are right Khan about the r154 having the steel center sections only. turns out I was thinking of the AR5 version that one has an aluminum center part.
I would go with whichever one fits easier or is easier to get the parts for. if money is not a concern the tripod ones from overseas will probably come on a pallet with most of the things you need, bellhousing etc, no extension needed, could be worth the extra money but the tunnel mods for a 92-94 SC will need to be done. You can use the v160 tunnel or a 95-97 sc300 5spd tunnel, whichever is a better deal really.
I would go with whichever one fits easier or is easier to get the parts for. if money is not a concern the tripod ones from overseas will probably come on a pallet with most of the things you need, bellhousing etc, no extension needed, could be worth the extra money but the tunnel mods for a 92-94 SC will need to be done. You can use the v160 tunnel or a 95-97 sc300 5spd tunnel, whichever is a better deal really.
11-21-14, 11:22 AM
#12
This is a lot of great info. I'm starting to consider putting together a r154 setup vs v160. I know ideally the v160 will hold more power in the future but for used boxes @4-5k plus all the odds and ends to make it bolt in the r154 could be had for 2500-$3000 and still support 6-700whp.
11-21-14, 01:51 PM
#14
This is a lot of great info. I'm starting to consider putting together a r154 setup vs v160. I know ideally the v160 will hold more power in the future but for used boxes @4-5k plus all the odds and ends to make it bolt in the r154 could be had for 2500-$3000 and still support 6-700whp.
R154 can be done for about half the cost and dont need as much custom work to do it....
Anyone running a OS-Giken twin on the r154?
Last edited by CatManD3W; 11-21-14 at 01:55 PM.
11-21-14, 01:58 PM
#15
I would go with whichever one fits easier or is easier to get the parts for. if money is not a concern the tripod ones from overseas will probably come on a pallet with most of the things you need, bellhousing etc, no extension needed, could be worth the extra money but the tunnel mods for a 92-94 SC will need to be done. You can use the v160 tunnel or a 95-97 sc300 5spd tunnel, whichever is a better deal really.
This is a lot of great info. I'm starting to consider putting together a r154 setup vs v160. I know ideally the v160 will hold more power in the future but for used boxes @4-5k plus all the odds and ends to make it bolt in the r154 could be had for 2500-$3000 and still support 6-700whp.
I rebuilt my R154 to handle the maximum 700-750whp but I'm only building my GTE for 360whp-400whp. I'm happy with the overkill and there will be room to grow if I should ever want to. It is an easy and smooth transmission to drive with in a DD. Now if you want to start at 650whp or more and feel like you'll go even higher down the road, then yes it makes more sense to consider the cost of the V160.
To give you an idea of what you might run into, here's a rough estimate of my R154 swap cost (I bought a lot of things new):
$850 MK3 R154 (used, 89k miles from stock Supra)
$350 1JZ bellhousing (new)
$250 OEM Soarer extension housing + arm (new, imported)
$330 SS V3 shifter
$50 MC VSS adapter
$100 Yellowbox speedo corrector
$75 1982-85 Celica W58 crossmember (used)
$125 MK3 R154 front driveshaft (used)
?? MC 1-2 fork, DM 3-4 fork, MC front bearing plate, MC 1st gear washer (bought new together, forget cost)
est$600 Transmission rebuild
est$500 installation
est $300 welding needed for Celica crossmember to fit SC on passenger side
est$175 OEM 7MGTE clutch and PP (cheap, weak power holding for NA engine)
I'm forgetting some little things but that will give you a rough idea of the cost to overkill/build your R154 or at least an MK3 version. It adds up and can approach the cost of a V160 but I still think you'll spend more on a V160 swap when all is said and done. I don't think I'm a good example of keeping things within a reasonable budget either.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 11-27-14 at 01:06 AM.
